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Old 05-10-2017, 10:16 PM #64
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Originally Posted by Eric the Fish View Post
Life as a right Segues into health care imo.
Even if I accept this as true (and part of me does), it still doesn't mean the Government must mandate that I own healthcare. Owning a gun is a right, but the Government sure doesn't mandate that I own one, nor does the Gov subsidize my gun.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:43 AM #65
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If I do develop any health issues (like the diabetes I already have), I'll pay for what I need out-of-pocket, like I already do. My health issues are my problems, not anyone else's. Nor do I expect/want anyone to pay for my problems.
1. Given the current healthcare costs and the lack of any control over them, that's not really that feasible

2. That's not feasible for MOST of America at this point. It's not even feasible for most people who have full time, salary jobs.
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Even if I accept this as true (and part of me does), it still doesn't mean the Government must mandate that I own healthcare. Owning a gun is a right, but the Government sure doesn't mandate that I own one, nor does the Gov subsidize my gun.
And this is where the Supreme Court's ruling is so important. The government can not mandate you participate in a healthcare program, but they can mandate a tax to cover healthcare.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:58 AM #66
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
If I do develop any health issues (like the diabetes I already have), I'll pay for what I need out-of-pocket, like I already do. My health issues are my problems, not anyone else's. Nor do I expect/want anyone to pay for my problems.
My uncle has diabetes, Last year he spent 60+ days in a hospital with diabetes related kidney failure.

I bought his marketplace plan and thus received an end of year statement. His total bill before insurance for last year was over a million dollars. I paid ~8k before he hit his yearly out of pocket maximum in addition to 9k in insurance.

Pre ACA he would have hit his annual care limit and lifetime care limit from that single treatment.

Now I agree with slate,

1. given how everything happened I had zero choice what hospital he went to, who preformed the treatments, how long he needed to stay hospitalized. All that was outside of my control. But because he received care I am legally obligated to pay.

2. I don't think I could pay for my own health care and I'm in the 1% of earners. Sure not having to pay ~20k because of the ACA's tax on investment income will be nice, but I would need 50 years of those savings just to pay for my uncles treatment.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:15 PM #67
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If you have a chance, you should read through The Economist's interview with #45. It's just a breathtaking demonstration of ineptitude and ignorance. An excerpt:

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Originally Posted by Donald Trump
The state governments are in much better position to, you know, help people. In terms of, you know, just the size, the mere size of it. But we’re putting in $8bn and you’re going to have absolute coverage. You’re going to have absolute guaranteed coverage. You’re going to have it if you’re a person going in…don’t forget, this was not supposed to be the way insurance works. Insurance is, you’re 20 years old, you just graduated from college, and you start paying $15 a month for the rest of your life and by the time you’re 70, and you really need it, you’re still paying the same amount and that’s really insurance.
http://www.economist.com/Trumptranscript
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:52 PM #68
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My uncle has diabetes, Last year he spent 60+ days in a hospital with diabetes related kidney failure.
Obviously I don't know anything about your uncle. I don't know what type of diabetes he has. And it's unfortunate about his kidney failure. I can only tell you what I do, as a diabetic, to avoid kidney failure and hospitalization. I aggressively stay on top on my blood sugar levels, I strictly eat how/what I'm supposed to, and do everything my doctor instructs me to do. This is relatively easy to control with smart choices (assuming Type 2.) Type 1 is another matter altogether. What I'm suggesting, is that if your uncle has Type 2 (like myself), then ending up in the hospital is almost certainly his own doing. If this is the case, then the brunt of the hospitalization cost should not be brought to bear on the taxpayers.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:14 AM #69
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he has always had a pump and been very aggressive.
He is also 60 and has been dealing with it his entire life.
Even doing everything perfect 55 years of the condition and you will have negative externalities caused by it.

You're also stepping into FAE territority.
"I do everything right and will never have an issue, if you have an issue its your fault"
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:08 PM #70
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he has always had a pump and been very aggressive.
He is also 60 and has been dealing with it his entire life.
Even doing everything perfect 55 years of the condition and you will have negative externalities caused by it.

You're also stepping into FAE territority.
"I do everything right and will never have an issue, if you have an issue its your fault"
Curious, what type of Diabetes does he have? I realize this is very personal, feel free not to answer. I have Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus as a result of insulin resistance. Working out and eating properly has enabled me to keep my A1C at an average of 6.2% If I could give up pizza, I'd probably get it even lower.

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Even doing everything perfect 55 years of the condition and you will have negative externalities caused by it.
With Type 2 Diabetes, that's not entirely true. If you do everything perfect, as you describe, your blood sugar levels can be managed. Random and unexplained sugar spikes don't happen by themselves. Sugar spikes occur from eating something improper, failing to work out enough, or not taking medication... all of which are choices. Making the right choices, a Type 2 diabetic can live as long as anyone else.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:28 AM #71
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Again,
one minor mistake in 55 years should not mean my uncle dies when there is ample medical services that could prevent it and let him live for 20+ more years.

What happens when instead of kidney failure, it is cancer, where is the choice in getting that?
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:41 AM #72
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Again,
one minor mistake in 55 years should not mean my uncle dies when there is ample medical services that could prevent it and let him live for 20+ more years.

What happens when instead of kidney failure, it is cancer, where is the choice in getting that?
I supposed it depends on what the mistake was. As for cancer, now you're getting into the realm of unknown causes. Some of those those causes are effects from bad choices (smoking, working with asbestos, etc.), while some of those causes are environmental.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:32 PM #73
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Yes, but in designing health care we need to take all of that into effect. Policy IMPO should be determined solely by how it affects the population as a whole. We can go on and on about individual cases all day, the point I was trying to make is it is not always a choice, people get sick, even very health conscious people.

Back on topic,
The ACHA still has not been submitted, as it needs a CBO score. Depending on that score, there could be mandated changes and a revote on it
http://www.businessinsider.com/gop-h...o-score-2017-5
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:37 AM #74
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We can go on and on about individual cases all day, the point I was trying to make is it is not always a choice, people get sick, even very health conscious people.
On this we agree. But I still don't see a compelling reason why everyone should be obligated to own health insurance. It should be a choice for each individual.
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:00 PM #75
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On this we agree. But I still don't see a compelling reason why everyone should be obligated to own health insurance. It should be a choice for each individual.
I view health very very similar top how I view education. They only work when the majority are covered.

People make hundreds of stupid decisions every day, when they get injured doing so I want them treated with the least amount of cost to me as an individual. There is no better way to accomplish that with single payer insurance.

California can implement universal coverage with the same level of care the ACA mandated for about $1025 an individual per year ( $85 a month)l. I pay double that every ****ing month just to the insurance company for myself. My wifes employer sponsored plan costs her 400 dollars a month.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:12 AM #76
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People make hundreds of stupid decisions every day, when they get injured doing so I want them treated with the least amount of cost to me as an individual.
I think the above-quoted statement is just where you and I fundamentally disagree. I'll dissect for clarity:

YOU: "I want them treated..."
ME: I couldn't care less if they're treated or not, it's their problem.

YOU: "with the least amount of cost to me as an individual."
ME: With NO cost me as an individual.

YOU: "People make hundreds of stupid decisions every day..."
ME: And they should pay for their own stupid decisions. By allowing them to fail, they just might make smarter decisions in the future.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:40 PM #77
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
I think the above-quoted statement is just where you and I fundamentally disagree. I'll dissect for clarity:

YOU: "I want them treated..."
ME: I couldn't care less if they're treated or not, it's their problem.

YOU: "with the least amount of cost to me as an individual."
ME: With NO cost me as an individual.

YOU: "People make hundreds of stupid decisions every day..."
ME: And they should pay for their own stupid decisions. By allowing them to fail, they just might make smarter decisions in the future.
ME: There is no reason not to treat everyone. Literally every ****ing civilized country in the world has managed to do this except us. Its stupid and it's costing us too much money.
YOU: .....

There's no arguing this. Its proven. Single payer is cheaper and it's just as effective. Largely because your first argument has no merits. People become healthcare professionals to help people. They will never simple refuse care. It's unethical and goes against thousands of years of medical practice.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:30 PM #78
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I think the above-quoted statement is just where you and I fundamentally disagree. I'll dissect for clarity:

YOU: "I want them treated..."
ME: I couldn't care less if they're treated or not, it's their problem.
This is something of a strawman because you're leaving out a very important part of his quote:

"I view health very very similar top how I view education. They only work when the majority are covered. "

I know it's really easy to refuse to look past the tip of your own nose, but guess what - modern healthcare is a complex system that necessarily relies on economies of scale. There would be absolutely no justification for a hospital to own/lease, say, an MRI machine if that wasn't the case. If you want modern treatments and therapies available to you as the individual, then its necessary to make healthcare available to as many people as possible.

"Available to as many people as possible" as I used it doesn't mean "available" in the sense of a $25 million home sitting for sale and vacant; it means within a reasonable grasp of attaining.

This "every man is an island" mentality is myopic and has no place in the healthcare debate.

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ME: There is no reason not to treat everyone. Literally every ****ing civilized country in the world has managed to do this except us. Its stupid and it's costing us too much money.
YOU: .....
The response is going to be something akin to "people dying in the streets is no cost to me."
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:00 PM #79
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ME: There is no reason not to treat everyone. Literally every ****ing civilized country in the world has managed to do this except us. Its stupid and it's costing us too much money.
YOU: .....

There's no arguing this. Its proven. Single payer is cheaper and it's just as effective. Largely because your first argument has no merits. People become healthcare professionals to help people. They will never simple refuse care. It's unethical and goes against thousands of years of medical practice.
It's easy for those other civilized countries to have a great healthcare system (and educational system too, for that matter) when the U.S. is largely providing for their security. If the U.S. pulls out of NATO, you'll see many of those other civilized countries dip so far into their healthcare and education budgets, that those systems will be just as horrible as ours. So let's stop with the "other civilized countries" comparison, because it's apples to oranges.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:32 AM #80
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It's easy for those other civilized countries to have a great healthcare system (and educational system too, for that matter) when the U.S. is largely providing for their security. If the U.S. pulls out of NATO, you'll see many of those other civilized countries dip so far into their healthcare and education budgets, that those systems will be just as horrible as ours. So let's stop with the "other civilized countries" comparison, because it's apples to oranges.
So let's stop doing that. There is no need for any of this defense spending. There is no more Soviet empire threatening all of Europe. We don't have to pull out of NATO, we just don't need to spend 600+ billion ****ing dollars on a military.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:04 AM #81
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
It's easy for those other civilized countries to have a great healthcare system (and educational system too, for that matter) when the U.S. is largely providing for their security. If the U.S. pulls out of NATO, you'll see many of those other civilized countries dip so far into their healthcare and education budgets, that those systems will be just as horrible as ours. So let's stop with the "other civilized countries" comparison, because it's apples to oranges.
That's a pretty bold statement, one which should be backed up with something other than just the word of some anonymous dude on the internet. Your whole "apples to oranges" argument falls apart if you're just pulling this out of thin air.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:59 PM #82
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Did I really just read a grown man saying that someone deserved a million dollars of medical bills because he assumes they were irresponsible with their diabetes maintenance? The fact that people actually think like that blows my mind.

When someone pays that million dollars, who do you think gets it? What do you think that goes towards?
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:20 PM #83
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That's a pretty bold statement, one which should be backed up with something other than just the word of some anonymous dude on the internet. Your whole "apples to oranges" argument falls apart if you're just pulling this out of thin air.
23 of the 28 members of NATO don't pay their portion of what's promised to the alliance. This means the remaining 5 members (which includes the U.S.) must pick-up the financial slack. My argument is one of logic. The countries that are often pointed to as having wonderful healthcare systems are the very countries which don't contribute to NATO, and yet get NATO protection. These countries have very tiny militaries, and therefore can afford to dump huge amounts of money into a nationalized healthcare system. If these countries were forced to provide for their own defense, they'd either have to cut into that healthcare budget, or they'd probably get gobbled up by Russia.
For those that think get gobbled up by Russia is outside the realm of possibility, ask the people of Latvia or Lithuania how they feel about it. Or better yet, ask Yugoslavia.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:26 PM #84
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Did I really just read a grown man saying that someone deserved a million dollars of medical bills because he assumes they were irresponsible with their diabetes maintenance? The fact that people actually think like that blows my mind.

When someone pays that million dollars, who do you think gets it? What do you think that goes towards?
Yes, yes you did. Diabetes Type 2 is a disease of choices. There are no exceptions to this. With Type 2 Diabetes, there are no such things as surprise sugar spikes. It is entirely about sugar regulation and management. If a person dies from complications due to diabetes, they did it to themselves. With that said, Type 1 Diabetes is a different matter altogether. But up to this point, we've discussed Type 2, so that's where I'm keeping the conversation.
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