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Old 04-12-2020, 01:21 AM #22
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Looking at post from the past few days, if the biggest complaint is the ASA then Shocktech has done well and came out relatively clean.

I just got my STR in recently from them and love it.

Honestly I’m fine with the macro line and asa. The old tech is what I like about these guns. The price point is pretty much inline with what they were new back in the day. Still costs the same to build them today as it did then. With Shocktech it’s just Danny building the guns I believe. These are high end autocockers, not entry level and not budget. Nor are they mid level. The performance you get out of these reflects in the cost.
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Old 04-12-2020, 01:42 AM #23
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Beautiful color.
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Old 04-12-2020, 02:05 AM #24
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Please no AT Pipes! That’s just a cop out lol...


I like the overall design and milling of the Marker.

I’m unsure why they went with some of their Parts choices, but overall I believe it’s nice.

The Wire Detents with wide open holes into the Breech are what turn me off.

Also, agreed that most modern AutoCockers are overpriced, but did they release the price for this yet?
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Old 04-12-2020, 02:18 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie View Post
Please no AT Pipes! That’s just a cop out lol...


I like the overall design and milling of the Marker.

I’m unsure why they went with some of their Parts choices, but overall I believe it’s nice.

The Wire Detents with wide open holes into the Breech are what turn me off.

Also, agreed that most modern AutoCockers are overpriced, but did they release the price for this yet?
Rubber detents do have the drawback of getting chewed up a lot quicker than with their open bolt designs due to the detents being at rest in a forward position (even with slot cutouts in the bolts) in my experience. I have mixed opinions on rubber detents on cockers for this reason. Using dual wired detents has the benefit of both being super robust and handling modern force feed loaders just fine.

Most of the parts on this are excellent (like the other Shocktech offerings). The only spot that really needs improvement is maybe the ASA and that is just to get that dang macroline from sticking out on the sides. The Shocktech pneumatics are really good, easy to service with a really quick three-way. The Gunfighter frame is also just plain screaming fast.
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Old 04-12-2020, 03:57 AM #26
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So what you are telling me is after 20 years they cant come up with a better ASA for $1200-$1700???

I really wanna see an advancement in cockers cause the Evo X is old af and shoots every bit as nice as anything in todays market.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:16 AM #27
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Are we really complaining about the ASA on these guns? You probably also complain that a barrel is too loud as well.

These guns are the highest quality autococker you can buy. Period. They don't get any better than this. While other companies also make good autococker parts, these are the top tier.

Pull it out the case and these things work flawlessly. Every part that could be made better was made better (bomb2 and frame). I wouldn't be surprised if there were other things on the horizon as well.

Remember, this is a one person operation run out of a garage. The bodies are milled by one person here in the USA and shocktech isn't even his full time job.

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Old 04-12-2020, 09:28 AM #28
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These guns are the highest quality autococker you can buy. Period. They don't get any better than this. While other companies also make good autococker parts, these are the top tier.
While these are high end, high quality markers I'll argue that Inception Designs components are *at least* as good in terms of quality, execution, and function. They've become my benchmark for this market segment and I'm not sure I'd choose one of these over a new FLE if I were in the running for another cocker. Considering I prefer the body milling, frame and ASA of the ID marker, I think it would be my winner.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:46 AM #29
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You guys complaining about the price of these things have obviously never had machining quotes. Let’s break this down assuming they build them in batches of 25 at a time just thinking of the stuff that’s unique to the gun; body, front block, back block, grip and asa. The other assumption is the shop rate is $175/hour and each setup takes an hour.

All the parts have 6 sides and the small shops doing this work probably aren’t setting these up in 4 axis machines so each of those sides will require a setup.
So 1 part times 6 setups is $1050 x 5 main parts divided by 25 guns is $210 per gun in setup. And you haven’t cut a single chip yet.
Next let’s assume you have 2 hours of milling in each gun. That is $350 no matter how big your batch is.
Now we’re sitting at $560 with nothing in either tube or a set of pneumatics.
For that stuff and the HPR which are higher volume parts let’s assume Shocktech is pricing them at about a 35% margin which is pretty common. You add up all that stuff with the list price on Shocktechs website at that margin you get $325.

That puts you at $885 and some change for a pile of raw un-anodized parts. That puts them at a profit of 35.5% which is a very reasonable number. Add in the single color anodizing which isn’t free so let’s call that $100 as a wild *** guess that margin falls to 21%. A margin of 21% sucks plain and simple. The places I’ve worked would kill a project for anything under 25% margin.

On a side note you can probably tell I’m bored on a Sunday morning now.

Edit: I realize You can get an Inception cocker for less and they are great but I’m assuming they machine these parts in larger batch sizes so that’ll have a big impact on your setup costs not so much on machine time. That being said you can see after breaking the numbers down why a low volume customer machined marker costs what it does. They’re really cheap considering they were roughly the same price 20 years ago when you factor in inflation from 2000 a $1400 gun would cost you over $1900 in today’s money.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:56 AM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy View Post
You guys complaining about the price of these things have obviously never had machining quotes. Let’s break this down assuming they build them in batches of 25 at a time just thinking of the stuff that’s unique to the gun; body, front block, back block, grip and asa. The other assumption is the shop rate is $175/hour and each setup takes an hour.

All the parts have 6 sides and the small shops doing this work probably aren’t setting these up in 4 axis machines so each of those sides will require a setup.
So 1 part times 6 setups is $1050 x 5 main parts divided by 25 guns is $210 per gun in setup. And you haven’t cut a single chip yet.
Next let’s assume you have 2 hours of milling in each gun. That is $350 no matter how big your batch is.
Now we’re sitting at $560 with nothing in either tube or a set of pneumatics.
For that stuff and the HPR which are higher volume parts let’s assume Shocktech is pricing them at about a 35% margin which is pretty common. You add up all that stuff with the list price on Shocktechs website at that margin you get $325.

That puts you at $885 and some change for a pile of raw in-anodized parts. That puts them at a profit of 35.5% which is a very reasonable number. Add in the single color anodizing which isn’t free so let’s call that $100 as a wild *** guess that margin falls to 21%. A margin of 21% sucks plain and simple. The places I’ve worked would kill a project for anything under 25% margin.

On a side note you can probably tell I’m bored on a Sunday morning now.

Edit: I realize You can get an Inception cocker for less and they are great but I’m assuming they machine these parts in larger batch sizes so that’ll have a big impact on your setup costs not so much on machine time. That being said you can see after breaking the numbers down why a low volume customer machined marker costs what it does. They’re really cheap considering they were roughly the same price 20 years ago when you factor in inflation from 2000 a $1400 gun would cost you over $1900 in today’s money.
^^^ All of this. The idea that a made in the USA gun by an Individual in his “spare time”and I use that loosely can be sub $1000 is insanely naive and not worth the breath to say it. They make Hondas for people who just want a car to take them from A to B. They make Ferraris for people who want to get the same place but in style. Don’t like the price tag, no biggie. But please stop trying to compare the two
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Old 04-12-2020, 02:49 PM #31
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Quote:
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You guys complaining about the price of these things have obviously never had machining quotes. Letís break this down assuming they build them in batches of 25 at a time just thinking of the stuff thatís unique to the gun; body, front block, back block, grip and asa. The other assumption is the shop rate is $175/hour and each setup takes an hour.

All the parts have 6 sides and the small shops doing this work probably arenít setting these up in 4 axis machines so each of those sides will require a setup.
So 1 part times 6 setups is $1050 x 5 main parts divided by 25 guns is $210 per gun in setup. And you havenít cut a single chip yet.
Next letís assume you have 2 hours of milling in each gun. That is $350 no matter how big your batch is.
Now weíre sitting at $560 with nothing in either tube or a set of pneumatics.
For that stuff and the HPR which are higher volume parts letís assume Shocktech is pricing them at about a 35% margin which is pretty common. You add up all that stuff with the list price on Shocktechs website at that margin you get $325.

That puts you at $885 and some change for a pile of raw un-anodized parts. That puts them at a profit of 35.5% which is a very reasonable number. Add in the single color anodizing which isnít free so letís call that $100 as a wild *** guess that margin falls to 21%. A margin of 21% sucks plain and simple. The places Iíve worked would kill a project for anything under 25% margin.

On a side note you can probably tell Iím bored on a Sunday morning now.

Edit: I realize You can get an Inception cocker for less and they are great but Iím assuming they machine these parts in larger batch sizes so thatíll have a big impact on your setup costs not so much on machine time. That being said you can see after breaking the numbers down why a low volume customer machined marker costs what it does. Theyíre really cheap considering they were roughly the same price 20 years ago when you factor in inflation from 2000 a $1400 gun would cost you over $1900 in todayís money.
Exactly. We are facing even more inflation now as well with this turn down. Economics 101.
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Old 04-12-2020, 03:33 PM #32
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I remember hearing someone who knows what he's talking about saying it's FAR easier and far less expensive to design and build an electronic gun these days. A mechanical gun has a lot more moving parts that require precision machining, and Cockers are the epitome of that idea.

To me, the ASA is fine. There's a lot of front-load ASA's out there if you want one. It's gotten harder to find one that's got the air line on the side, and some guns, that's exactly what you'd want. Not saying Cockers in particular, but there's some out there.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:06 PM #33
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To be clear, Iím not ďcomplainingĒ about the ASA, just pointing out that it could be better. A lot of the customers for these guns want them essentially how they were back in the day and I get that too.
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Old 04-13-2020, 08:25 PM #34
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am i the only one that thinks all these new cockers are way over-priced? yeah they are nice and all, but its essentially the same gun as they were 20+ years ago just with newly made parts.

if they had macro-less designs(like that one frame thats available) and re-designed the 3-ways and front blocks so that they required less work and were more reliable then I could see them charging 1500+, but as they are, i feel like they should be in the ~800 range.

but, people are buying them, so i wouldn't listen to me. I don't seem to understand the paintball market at all anymore lmfao
These markers arenít being mass produced like a CS2, everything is more expensive and more time consuming than any high electronic marker.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:15 PM #35
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Will itnwprk with a pump kit
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:58 PM #36
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These markers arenít being mass produced like a CS2, everything is more expensive and more time consuming than any high electronic marker.
exactly. It's like a high end 1911 vs a glock.
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:34 PM #37
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*something something... The Judge... something about also firing a 410*

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Old 04-15-2020, 08:23 PM #38
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I like shocktech parts, but damn this is ugly
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:24 PM #39
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I like shocktech parts, but damn this is ugly
While it's not my favorite shocktech body, I wouldn't call it ugly. The lines are reminiscent of the Shocktech SFT/NXT shockers. With so few being made, they have a better chance of fetching good money in the future.

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Old 04-19-2020, 11:33 AM #40
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This thing looks awesome. I miss aftershock and WC runs back in late 90s early 2000s.
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Old 04-19-2020, 11:45 AM #41
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Old 04-29-2020, 01:57 PM #42
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A cocker frame without handle has already been created by nummtech
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