[ry_goody]

So I used to play with a pretty cheap phantom, only real ups it had were a 45 grip and freak barrel. Even with 12 gram co2 chargers it shot beautifully and extremely stable, was quiet as well. You could auto trigger the thing as fast as you could pump it without any issues.

I decided to upgrade so I sold that phantom and got a new empire sniper as people claim they are really good. I am just finding it hard to see the empire sniper as superior in anyway.

It's bigger, it weighs more. If you auto trigger super fast it seems more apt to have the sear slip and not do it right. Maybe I could learn its quirks better, but I really think I could out auto trigger someone with a phantom.

Plus it farts, if you hold the pump forward it farts, so it farts through auto triggering fast. It just seems kind of broken and like a faulty design. Do fancy CCM's fart like that as well or is it an entire flaw of the cocker?

The only thing I really like is that it takes auto cocker barrels and is lower pressure. But honestly seems like the lower pressure isn't really doing anything. It's not quieter or more consistent.

Is there some fabulous thing about cocker pumps that make them so much more desirable than phantoms? Cause I seem to be missing it....

[fossilhead]

Haven't shot a ccm so I can't speak on that. It's all preference. A sniper can be sprung and set to pressures to fix farting. Overall it's sheridan vs nelson valvetrain.

People like snipers because velocity adjustment is easier, pump action is easier, and of course, barrel options.

People like Phantoms because they are super rad. They make YOU also SUPER RAD.
The modular design gives you more options for feeds.
They run great on unregged 12 grams.

Might be the most efficient out of the box gun ever.
Never break. Maintenance is practically none.
And.... did I mention that they are RAD? And give you ninja powers?

[ry_goody]

Originally Posted by fossilhead

Haven't shot a ccm so I can't speak on that. It's all preference. A sniper can be sprung and set to pressures to fix farting. Overall it's sheridan vs nelson valvetrain.

People like snipers because velocity adjustment is easier, pump action is easier, and of course, barrel options.

People like Phantoms because they are super rad. They make YOU also SUPER RAD.
The modular design gives you more options for feeds.
They run great on unregged 12 grams.

Might be the most efficient out of the box gun ever.
Never break. Maintenance is practically none.
And.... did I mention that they are RAD? And give you ninja powers?

I was looking for reasons to keep the sniper...

[fossilhead]

Ok then. Lighter pump stroke and it's quieter.

[Super69ur]

An out-of-the-box Empire Sniper isn't usually set up to be the most ideal. If you got yours new, ask someone who is familiar with Cockers to help you. There is also a chance that, if you bought used, the previous owner tried to "fix" previously mentioned issued and made them worse.

All-in-all, I found Empire Snipers to be vastly inferior compared to most other well-built Cocker based pumps. The only way I could get one feeling rather nice was throwing a bunch of Inception parts in it. (Hammer, guide rod, trigger group, sear)

Valve bounce (the farting) is an easily fixed problem. Do a little research and buy/swap a spring.

That being said, I think a Properly configured Sheridan marker is very much better than a Nelson for open class play. It's smoother and quieter.

All of the above is rather moot in my opinion. A Marq valve train is my favourite to use for pump out of all three.

[yoder916]

the right combinations of springs and internals will eliminate the "Fart". And for your other question, I personally haven't shot a single CCM that farted. If it did the operating pressure would most likely be the culprit. Even the SS-25 (Earlier CCM Model), uses a Spyder valve and even then, the marker doesn't fart. So as stated by a few above, springs and internals make a world of difference.

[Ryn_Droma]

If I were being honest, I'd have to say the real reason I prefer cocker pumps to everything else is probably because it's what I used the first and kept using for so long that everything else feels weird to me.

On the few phantoms I've shot, the pump stroke has been my biggest complaint, not as effortless or smooth as a cocker.

[g35x]

Snipers are the best pumps for electro players to move to when they decide to play pump.

Phantoms are the best pumps for die-hard pump players who want to play stock class.

That's the way I've always seen it. Open class Phantoms are REALLY awkward in my opinion. The back bottle setup is uncomfortable, and so is the bottomline once you run macro down there. I also don't like using the plastic elbows to mount a hopper. The only Phantom I've ever owned I ran backbottle with a tiny 3.5oz CO2 tank and a 15 round tube. I got rid of that setup when all of my local fields stopped filling co2. I was never interested in running 12 grams.

The only marker I own right now is an Empire Sniper. I picked it up used for $180 and I think it's a great marker. It could use some tuning out of the box for sure. I might get around to messing with the upgraded hammer from Inception Designs and changing springs eventually, but until I do all of the kids at my local field will know "that guy with the pump" is coming for them when they hear farting off in the distance

[Dover]

All you pump guys rock, i started playin 3-man pump tourneys last season

Farts rock!

[Frank_W]

I really like both cocker pumps and phantoms, as well as the MVP. I only use my phantom for stock class play though. If I had to stick with only one or the other, I would go with one of my cocker pumps. I just find cocker pumps to be less effort to shoot... probably because of the lighter pump stroke.

If it were my phantom vs an empire sniper, I would pick my phantom. I would pick any of my pumps over an empire sniper, but that's why I no longer have an empire sniper... lol

The sniper isn't a bad gun, but it sounds like yours needs some work.

[ball1]

I own a CCM S6, a phantom, 99 sniper, 2003 autococker w/ pump kit. I play almost exclusively w/ the CCM. No it doesn't fart. The only time I use the phantom is for playing stock class against noobs. the other 2 are my loaner pumps. I have never had a new pumper use my phantom and say WOW I wanna play pump. I have had just about everyone that has played with my other pumps convert to pump play or at least buy one for their gear bag.

[psycho91]

I will shoot snipers if they are someone elses or they are set up right, other than that hand me a good ol nelson style pump, light, can run on co2 or hpa, and there practically indestructible, so what if the pump stroke isnt sniper smooth your playing pump, If you wanna shoot a little faster then shoot a mech, but im also biased and lazy, I like the ease or no maintenance at all of nelsons

[dreadmuppet]

I really wanted to like my open class Phantom. But I hated the pump stroke and could not get used it it.

Sold it and bought a KP3 which is all sorts of better in the stoke department. My teammates who use Snipers like the KP3 as much or more than most Snipers. My only complaint is how much heavier it is compared to the Phantom. It definitely has noticeable sound signature, but it creeps out other players on the field more than it bothers me.

I have used a CCM a couple times and loved it. Light, quiet, buttery stroke. I just have a really hard time justifying spending that much on a pump.

[Cdn_Cuda]

I'm similar to Dreadmuppet. Had an open class phantom and just couldn't get comfortable with it. Much prefer my sniper. I like the weight and the pump stroke. It's a custom build so it's exactly how I like it.

[Phantastique]

I had an Empire Sniper some years ago, but I had so many issues with it out of the box that by the time I got it tuned, I realized it just wasn't for me. Got a used Empire Trracer after that and and decided I liked the Nelson valve style better. Sold it and got myself a Phantom shortly afterward, and it's been with me (with many, MANY customizations) ever since.

I also used to have a CCM 6.5, but I had so much fun playing with my stock class Phantom that I sold that as well.

It depends solely on the individual's preferences (of course), but I do find that a lot of people who started with the Empire Sniper and preferred that platform either moved on to a CCM or made their own pump from an autococker build to make it their own. Just my two cents.

[WoodsBaller57]

My first pump was a Phantom. I really enjoyed that marker, bought all kinds of parts to change the setup from open to stock class, 12 gram to co2 to HPA, vertical feed, RH feed and on and on and on. The Phantom was fun to tinker with; in fact, I came up with the idea for and perfected the brass pump arm shim for undercooking Phantoms.
But eventually I got the itch to try an auto cocker pump. After building a Prostock Cocker Pump, I got a CCM SS-25 then got my CCM S6.5, which love to play. I am hooked on the Autococker Pump. At one point I bought a Phantom for a backup, but virtually never played it and sold it. CCMs are very trouble free markers and are great investments. They have a fairly high initial cost but they KEEP THEIR VALUE!!

[Mr Idiot Box]

I use my phantom for strictly Stock class play they just work so well on 12g not to use one. When it gets too cold to use 12g I use my cocker pumps they are way better for open class play. Especially Highends like the CCM pumps.

But I love my custom phantom one of my favorite markers to shoot. Simple reliable light and efficient.

Cool thing about the Phantom with just a body swap you can switch from Open to modified SC to SC very easily without spending a bunch of cash. Best marker for the money IMO

[PsychoBaller]

I've always like Cocker Pumps, a Sniper 2 was my first more than 20yrs ago! Always felt like I was going to break a Phantom, just not enough marker for me.

[JOESPUD27]

Yes. I no longer own/shoot a Phantom. i put a stick feed on the sniper if I want to shoot less. I can't Phantom no mo.

[sniper88org]

well I own all 3 types of guns my thoughts on these guns the ccm is very smooth right from the factory but if you don't clean your guns it will not work the way you want it too same for all 3 guns guns are your prefence the more you work with it the better off you are

ccm pros phantom pro
lighter than stock class snipers very light weight almost too much
smooth from factory more body selections rf , lf, vert, stock
barrel options class

most of my guns have a/t so I personal play with my autocockers more only because when I start back in 86/87 they didn't have phantoms and I was use to the heavier guns like the kp3 which look like a 12 gauge shot gun all brass and wood stock thing weighed like 8 lbs with the c/a 12 oz tank steel tank so I used a lot of guns over the years but I have too give the award too the autococker wgp only cause they are more versatile over the years hate too say it you just can't make a electronic phantom or mech phantom that's why cockers are still around today

[Pump2pump]

I have used a phantom for many years before I switched to a autocockers. A phantom plus is it weight. The cocker can be tuned to perfection. Over all the cocker would be my choice.