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Old 11-09-2020, 02:16 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SparkyMike01 View Post
Tungsten Disulfide is an industrial dry lubricant that is typically used on fasteners and in the production of powder metal molded products. It is stable at pretty high temperatures (around 1250C).

But honestly, I'm not sure of the benefits in this application. It seems to me that if tungsten disulfide is a viable coating, why wouldn't something like a graphite coating work?
The coating is way, way un-needed in the application of paintball. TD tends to be used in a manufacturing setting in high wear items, and it basically just extends their usable life. With something like paintball engines, where the main wear surfaces are all touching buna/poly orings, the concern for wear on aluminum components is so incredible small, that this essentially is addressing a problem that doesn't exist. An anodized aluminum bolt could be well used into the multi-million cycle range without any major concern of failure due to wear, and the low friction thing really isn't that much of a benefit considering polishing will have a similar effect in terms of operating pressure.

There is only so much inherent value in lowering operating pressure anymore as well. 15 years ago? Sure the lower you can get it the better, but not everything is so finely tuned and reduced to a point that going lower on the operating PSI doesn't really matter all that much anymore. Efficiency isn't an issue, paint is already as brittle as it can get at the top divisions so no need to get it lower to shoot more brittle paint, and recoil is almost non-existent to where lower OP wouldn't really make much of a difference.

I guess we will see, but until they provide solid, defensible data on why is it X% better at XYZ than standard polished aluminum, Im chalking it up as marketing babble.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:28 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imped4now View Post
Before DLX introduced the ICE coating, we were getting along just fine in the paintball world with attention given to surface roughness and anodizing type and quality. Go look at a Dye or PE bolt component.

What issues does this coating solve?

Given that the new Luxes use a Gamma copy, FSDO isn't an issue due to the high shift forces in that kind of design. The only other reason you'd go to this length/cost is to reduce seal wear. Is that really an issue? No.

So....does it provide the perception of innovation? Cost justification is a tough game in paintball, I get it. And when there's a lack of true meat & potatoes innovation going on, you've got to give it something to market. The average paintballer loves that stuff and buys into it, substance or not.

It's akin to operating pressure. All operating pressure is, is a reflection of volume. Manufacturers market operating pressure like it really matters, but all DLX had to do to drop the OP of the new Luxe is give it a little more volume. Pounds per square inch. More square inches = less pressure, all else being equal. But hey, let's market it like it took a whole bunch of work, is a brand new feature, and makes all the difference in the world with how the marker shoots and feels.

This probably dates me but I built my own bolt kit for an SFT shocker as a senior design project in college. It was a fun little project to work on and I learned a lot working with a couple professors who specialized in compressed air systems. When it comes to paintball you have to figure out the amount of energy it takes to accelerate a paintball from 0-300 fps taking into account frictional losses in the barrel and that is more or less constant. The gun needs to build up potential energy and turn it into kinetic energy with the compressed air. The secret sauce is volume of air and pressure of that air you hit the ball with. There's only so many ways to skin that cat. All these coatings and elastomers and bolts are is marketing fluff. Those guys are chasing small tenths of a percent improvement when it comes to frictional losses. Now what they're doing might be better, but it's probably 1% better. I don't see bolts getting much better at this point, innovation is going to come from making things tool-less for cleaning and maintenance at this point.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:42 PM #24
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Lets not forget that Luxe was having a big issue with the ICE coating and bolt wear when the Luxe X launched due to the detent system. This caused them a lot of issues and they revised their detents at least 4 times. This coating should ... should allow them to get away with harder detents without any noticeable wear on the bolt.

Did the bolt wear cause an issue? it did cause leaking for some, but overall, no, it was just cosmetic. But it was still something that they must have felt they needed to correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy View Post
This probably dates me but I built my own bolt kit for an SFT shocker as a senior design project in college. It was a fun little project to work on and I learned a lot working with a couple professors who specialized in compressed air systems. When it comes to paintball you have to figure out the amount of energy it takes to accelerate a paintball from 0-300 fps taking into account frictional losses in the barrel and that is more or less constant. The gun needs to build up potential energy and turn it into kinetic energy with the compressed air. The secret sauce is volume of air and pressure of that air you hit the ball with. There's only so many ways to skin that cat. All these coatings and elastomers and bolts are is marketing fluff. Those guys are chasing small tenths of a percent improvement when it comes to frictional losses. Now what they're doing might be better, but it's probably 1% better. I don't see bolts getting much better at this point, innovation is going to come from making things tool-less for cleaning and maintenance at this point.
I tend to disagree, I think there is a lot of room in the bolt and engine area left to be explored. It will come from companies that still want to push the boundaries of design and efficiency ... new valves, new way fo operating and channeling the air flow.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:22 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imped4now View Post
Before DLX introduced the ICE coating, we were getting along just fine in the paintball world with attention given to surface roughness and anodizing type and quality. Go look at a Dye or PE bolt component.

What issues does this coating solve?

Given that the new Luxes use a Gamma copy, FSDO isn't an issue due to the high shift forces in that kind of design. The only other reason you'd go to this length/cost is to reduce seal wear. Is that really an issue? No.

So....does it provide the perception of innovation? Cost justification is a tough game in paintball, I get it. And when there's a lack of true meat & potatoes innovation going on, you've got to give it something to market. The average paintballer loves that stuff and buys into it, substance or not.

It's akin to operating pressure. All operating pressure is, is a reflection of volume. Manufacturers market operating pressure like it really matters, but all DLX had to do to drop the OP of the new Luxe is give it a little more volume. Pounds per square inch. More square inches = less pressure, all else being equal. But hey, let's market it like it took a whole bunch of work, is a brand new feature, and makes all the difference in the world with how the marker shoots and feels.
I am definitely not advocating for the use of a tungsten disulfide coating. And I am no chemical engineer, so it would be impossible for me to speak to the actual benefits of it. But, it does seem rather more of a marketing strategy.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:15 PM #26
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Seems like a reasonable amount of innovation. Price point is high but the amount of work that goes into this project is high as well and these will be a true custom that would last a person a lifetime of play with maintenance. Lower operating pressure is always nice.

The nice thing about their approach is they could be platform agnostic and apply that to any products they could have a partnership on with other vendors. Now reason not to do an Axe, or Geo4, etc.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:59 PM #27
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Originally Posted by Big Papa Pink View Post
I tend to disagree, I think there is a lot of room in the bolt and engine area left to be explored. It will come from companies that still want to push the boundaries of design and efficiency ... new valves, new way fo operating and channeling the air flow.
I also think there's a lot of room for new engines. In fact, many of them could be mule'd in existing bodies. I may or may not have a stash of other options.
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Old 11-09-2020, 05:46 PM #28
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I also think there's a lot of room for new engines. In fact, many of them could be mule'd in existing bodies. I may or may not have a stash of other options.
There needs to be an entirely new concept introduced I think, groundbreaking and wild in the way the ICE Epic or the Omen was in terms of its base design principle. No more of this thing of just building a spool or a poppet design. Someone needs to do something wildly new and out of left field that actually changes and offers something entirely new in the way of shooting a gelatin ball.
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Old 11-09-2020, 07:50 PM #29
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I just want the mech version of this. Props to Adrenaline for another stunning release.
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Old 11-09-2020, 08:06 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
I also think there's a lot of room for new engines. In fact, many of them could be mule'd in existing bodies. I may or may not have a stash of other options.
Time to get consulting so we can see the entire industry shift to another design.
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Old 11-09-2020, 10:02 PM #31
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Time to get consulting so we can see the entire industry shift to another design.
Irony has had his hand in many design platforms that many people are using now.

The issue with the ICE coating makes me think that Adrenaline is taking this to the next step. I have an axe that has wear on the bolt stem, I have had other markers wear on the stems. While not the highest end markers, this wear occurs and if we can prevent it from multiple wear points, then the overall user experience increases.

I think this is the aim of the Adrenaline lines. As such, they are producing the Lambo or Ferrari of the paintball world. Thus, their touches will be designed to give us comfort and reliability of owning such a high end marker.
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Old 11-09-2020, 10:40 PM #32
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The problem is that these coatings are historically not as scratch-resistant as a good old fashioned hard anno (speaking in regards to the ICE). In the case of the Luxe X, the bolt coating was getting chewed up by the detents in that marker's early release. If the bolt gets chewed up or badly scratched, you are going to cause more o-ring wear and the potential for leaks. You also don't really need the benefits of added slickness with a Gamma Core based design as it already has a large amount of force behind the bolt's movement.

Not knocking it yet as time will tell how it performs, but I would speculate the better strategy is to just use a hard anno'd bolt with a quality lubricant and reasonably disciplined maintenance routine.

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Old 11-10-2020, 12:01 PM #33
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It’s gonna be interesting then I guess to see how this new coating does. Will it wear out due to ball detents or have some defect, or will it prove to be a good decision on Adrenaline’s part? Besides the coating though, what else can we nitpick?
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Old 11-10-2020, 12:01 PM #34
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I can't wait to see it with the mech frame.
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Old 11-12-2020, 06:38 AM #35
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:41 AM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
I also think there's a lot of room for new engines. In fact, many of them could be mule'd in existing bodies. I may or may not have a stash of other options.
I'm happy to provide some test beds for your future ideas.
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Old 11-12-2020, 07:57 PM #37
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Oh my gosh!! This milling must’ve added 2 ounces. Lol
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Old 11-16-2020, 07:14 AM #38
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We actually did add weight with the milling, the barrel back and then we wanted more so we swapped to the stainless XL insert (easy way to add ounces). We did that (and rebalanced) on purpose. Plenty of people held them this weekend and no one was concerned about the added weight. If you're after lighter than X though this isn't for you.

The bolt face and moving the ball forward so the stack is even and not offset is where we spent 75% of our bolt time (I posted a video of that) WS2 was at the end. It's friction coefficient is the best on the planet but to get it to work you have to anodize under it so it's anodized as well on the aluminum then WS2. The bolt face is more important for mech but fully beneficial in both setups.

The core has been changed significantly (nothing by us but the next gen platform).
Two changes will be copied heavily in my opinion and that will be funny to see how it plays out (to copy or not).
The stock next gen mech frame wont be out for a while but we made 300 extra of our frames that will be available day 1 of next gen release.
We spent about 9 months designing the mods and making the mech frame, the last 4 months on looks and weight. We arent mad if ya don't like the looks we took a risk and said we are gonna go 100% different on looks than has ever been done. We did 1st 4 axis and 1st 5 axis and always tried to be the milling innovator so when people said our shocker full wave pattern was a ripper copy we were like OK then let's get radical and back to 5axis.
Great meeting and talking to everyone this weekend and showing you what we've been doing for the last year🤙
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:31 AM #39
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I know that lighter setups always seems like the way to go, but I personally prefer a little more weight. The heavier the setup, the less recoil, which means more shots on target.
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:41 AM #40
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You going to post pics of the improved engine?
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:02 AM #41
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You going to post pics of the improved engine?
We are gonna talk a lot more about it when they do. Expect to hear something from DLX within weeks🤙
By then we will have shooting videos with production parts in electro and mech and of side by side with our bolt and can in X. Won't be long.
We got to brag about mech and stuff but I'm not taking their thunder on those core parts it's all for them to release
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:05 AM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Graley View Post
We actually did add weight with the milling, the barrel back and then we wanted more so we swapped to the stainless XL insert (easy way to add ounces). We did that (and rebalanced) on purpose. Plenty of people held them this weekend and no one was concerned about the added weight. If you're after lighter than X though this isn't for you.

The bolt face and moving the ball forward so the stack is even and not offset is where we spent 75% of our bolt time (I posted a video of that) WS2 was at the end. It's friction coefficient is the best on the planet but to get it to work you have to anodize under it so it's anodized as well on the aluminum then WS2. The bolt face is more important for mech but fully beneficial in both setups.

The core has been changed significantly (nothing by us but the next gen platform).
Two changes will be copied heavily in my opinion and that will be funny to see how it plays out (to copy or not).
The stock next gen mech frame wont be out for a while but we made 300 extra of our frames that will be available day 1 of next gen release.
We spent about 9 months designing the mods and making the mech frame, the last 4 months on looks and weight. We arent mad if ya don't like the looks we took a risk and said we are gonna go 100% different on looks than has ever been done. We did 1st 4 axis and 1st 5 axis and always tried to be the milling innovator so when people said our shocker full wave pattern was a ripper copy we were like OK then let's get radical and back to 5axis.
Great meeting and talking to everyone this weekend and showing you what we've been doing for the last year🤙


C'mon now James, are you really going to stick a little jab about someone copying something DLX is planning to release when the last release under DLX and their sister company SP both flat out stole Jack Woods engine design? Thats the real joke.
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