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Old 05-04-2021, 12:28 PM #3529
Noa Bo
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Stealthy, glad to hear youíre rocking the Force. Loved your initial breakdown of it too. Makes me want to use mine again. Still waiting on that front grip they mentioned.

The idea of a poppit engine for the Force sounds really cool. I had totally forgotten all about my Vis. Alas, not sure sure what electros will remain in the collection.

My spidey sense tells me Planet Eclipse is going to release an improved CS real soon. My wishlist for a new CS would only really be refinement in the Gamma Pro Core, and a improved ergonomic design for the mech frame. If the mech CS2 frame was like the M170r, it would be golden.

Canít forget the excitement building for the next line coming out from Dye. It sounds like weíre going to see Dye leap ahead in a big way. Will they revamp some signature features? And will we get a Dye Mech??
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:56 AM #3530
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Errr...Ok techies... Wouldn't it be reasonably easy just to make a VIS with a slower bolt speed? Wouldn't a reduction shaft slow the bolt just as it does with the Nucleus? I suppose it'd lose efficiency. Maybe they'd use a lighter spring on the blast guide?

I guess I'm curious what F1 might do IF they decided to make an inline poppet for the Force.

Other than improving paint handling via bolt speed, I'm not sure what they could do to improve the VIS engine. I really love it...I haven't put the VCOM engine in my Marq in 2 years.

Last edited by RFP Professor : 05-05-2021 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:59 PM #3531
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Errr...Ok techies... Wouldn't it be reasonably easy just to make a VIS with a slower bolt speed? Wouldn't a reduction shaft slow the bolt just as it does with the Nucleus? I suppose it'd lose efficiency. Maybe they'd use a lighter spring on the blast guide?

I guess I'm curious what F1 might do IF they decided to make an inline poppet for the Force.

Other than improving paint handling via bolt speed, I'm not sure what they could do to improve the VIS engine. I really love it...I haven't put the VCOM engine in my Marq in 2 years.
Well, it wouldn't have an LPR, for one. So, they'd probably start by reducing the ram sail area by one size down to a 010. I suppose they could carry over the reduction shaft concept to the poppet engine, as well, meaning the forward shift area wouldn't be based on a seal at all. Given the current marker's routing, perhaps that's the better plan.

With that said, I don't believe the current VIS engine has any paint handling issues - bolt speed isn't a problem. I don't it as needing any "improvements" at all - if they can improve the durability of the cupseal (donut-blast guide interface), that would be great - a replaceable oring-style face seal would be amazing. Other than that, it's pretty great as is.

I'd be curious to hear John's take on a Force inline poppet.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:41 PM #3532
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I don't believe the current VIS engine has any paint handling issues - bolt speed isn't a problem. I don't it as needing any "improvements" at all - if they can improve the durability of the cupseal (donut-blast guide interface), that would be great - a replaceable oring-style face seal would be amazing. Other than that, it's pretty great as is.
I was surprised that F1 sold the Marq IP to HK. I had assumed that Field One's prioritizing paint handling above all other performance concerns had something to do with their experience shooting Timmys and Marqs.

I've experienced winter days where a VIS engine was the only gun not blending paint. I've also seen days where Gamma Core guns and properly set IV Core guns would shoot brittle paint when my VIS wouldn't, so I feel like there's some small room for improvement.

The F1 guys insisted their detents improved paint handling. Maybe that's all it needs? *shrugs*
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:39 PM #3533
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I would love a force inline poppet, however, the guys associated with it don't really see much use in continuing that base design. HK seems content releasing PL markers as well, so I don't see them investing. It could be done pretty easily, I think.
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Old Yesterday, 03:12 AM #3534
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I want to write a novel but Iíll keep it somewhat short. Shout out to Field One for making a marker that fits my unique needs almost perfectly. They advertise that the Force is basically amazing at handling super brittle paint, and I think I believe them. Iíd need to run my Force from about October to April to be sure, but from what Iíve seen so far they succeeded. The cold and humid weather in my area is a constant factor, one that my newer high ends donít exactly do great in. Iím mainly talking about the newer high ends that feature a faster bolt, the gamma core guns, the Infinity drives, and even the FL-21.

Once those high ends I mentioned start to break paint I always have to use my DSR. My DSR is haggard af though and needs either some new parts or just hang on my wall to be admired and remind me of good times. Hereís why I may keep the Force in the stable now. My markers are shooting great now ( Primes and Adrenaline TM40 )... but whatís going to happen when October hits and the humidity comes back, the sub 50 degree temps come back, and my nice new shooters start to break paint?

The Geo 4 seems g2g when that time comes. So does the Force. Iím assuming Iíll have trouble with the Primes again, and with the new Luxes. Hopefully the ATM40 surprises me.

Anyways. Iím just glad that at least one manufacturer is still aware of ultra brittle paint and actually created a product to deal with it. Talking about the Force.

Curveball
Iíve heard of pros talking about the Vanquish before and how it can shoot 5 star paint without breaking it- while the gun they are shooting canít. This hundred percent honest admission was an eye opener. So the industry seems to be going in one direction, and part of that direction seems to be okay with breaking a little more paint then usual. But faster bolts equal more reliability in the long run, so something had to give. I will keep hoping that a new Vanquish will still be developed and released because of what I heard.

Random bits of info
The new drives that feature faster bolts seem amazing during most of the year, but are also probably being used in warmer and drier climates.

There were two or three ďoff seasonsĒ Iíve never had to swab my barrel. The Shocker RSX and Luxe Ice were two guns that helped with that. The DSR truly was flawless in at least two more years in the ďoff seasonĒ. Two of those guns arenít being made anymore, and sad to say itíll soon be three.

I guess what Iím saying is, I hope that we always have those options available to us, the elite level of markers that will shoot the most brittle paint. I hope not everything goes to the faster bolt trend. Iíd love to see a slower bolt design comeback in fact, such as a new Vanquish or updated Encore powered Luxe.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 AM #3535
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The DSR really has blown me away, have not broken a single ball since I put in the vintage NASA bolt, I got that one because the dye bolt was out of stock and it's been great. I'm shocked I don't see more of them out on the field. Honestly my CS2 sits in my bag most days lol

I also find the arc bolt just as idiot proof as the Gama core.

Source: I am an idiot when it comes to working on stuff lol
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Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM #3536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
Iím mainly talking about the newer high ends that feature a faster bolt, the gamma core guns, the Infinity drives, and even the FL-21.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
This hundred percent honest admission was an eye opener. So the industry seems to be going in one direction, and part of that direction seems to be okay with breaking a little more paint then usual. But faster bolts equal more reliability in the long run, so something had to give. I will keep hoping that a new Vanquish will still be developed and released because of what I heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
The new drives that feature faster bolts seem amazing during most of the year, but are also probably being used in warmer and drier climates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
Iíd love to see a slower bolt design comeback in fact, such as a new Vanquish or updated Encore powered Luxe.
Just an FYI -

Bolt speed and bolt force are two separate functions, and aren't necessarily linked. Reliability comes from force, not speed. The Gamma is staged and actually quite slow in the initial stage (the one that matters), but employs high shift force to achieve great reliability. Think of it as a diesel - low engine speeds but enough torque to push through anything in its way. The ARC is similar in its design but handles the staging a little differently.

I would argue that ultimate paint handling is more of a result of face design, breech positioning and stack control than speed or force alone. The Force doesn't have a remarkably low bolt speed or bolt force, but has caught a reputation for its paint handling capability. There are other markers that are designed to do just as good of a job, while being just as reliable.

But I do stand but what I've always told you - you should keep the Force in your gearbag, as it will always work reliably, which is right up your alley.
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Old Yesterday, 07:54 AM #3537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
I’m mainly talking about the newer high ends that feature a faster bolt, the gamma core guns, the Infinity drives, and even the FL-21.

Once those high ends I mentioned start to break paint I always have to use my DSR. My DSR is haggard af though and needs either some new parts or just hang on my wall to be admired and remind me of good times. Here’s why I may keep the Force in the stable now. My markers are shooting great now ( Primes and Adrenaline TM40 )... but what’s going to happen when October hits and the humidity comes back, the sub 50 degree temps come back, and my nice new shooters start to break paint?

I’m assuming I’ll have trouble with the Primes again, and with the new Luxes. Hopefully the ATM40 surprises me.

Anyways. I’m just glad that at least one manufacturer is still aware of ultra brittle paint and actually created a product to deal with it. Talking about the Force.

Curveball
I’ve heard of pros talking about the Vanquish before and how it can shoot 5 star paint without breaking it- while the gun they are shooting can’t. This hundred percent honest admission was an eye opener. So the industry seems to be going in one direction, and part of that direction seems to be okay with breaking a little more paint then usual. But faster bolts equal more reliability in the long run, so something had to give. I will keep hoping that a new Vanquish will still be developed and released because of what I heard.

Random bits of info
The new drives that feature faster bolts seem amazing during most of the year, but are also probably being used in warmer and drier climates.

There were two or three “off seasons” I’ve never had to swab my barrel. The Shocker RSX and Luxe Ice were two guns that helped with that. The DSR truly was flawless in at least two more years in the “off season”. Two of those guns aren’t being made anymore, and sad to say it’ll soon be three.

I guess what I’m saying is, I hope that we always have those options available to us, the elite level of markers that will shoot the most brittle paint. I hope not everything goes to the faster bolt trend. I’d love to see a slower bolt design comeback in fact, such as a new Vanquish or updated Encore powered Luxe.


Never have I read something that is filled with so much incorrect, misguided information.

I'm out. Good Luck Gentlemen.
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Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM #3538
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Originally Posted by k1rage View Post
The DSR really has blown me away, have not broken a single ball since I put in the vintage NASA bolt, I got that one because the dye bolt was out of stock and it's been great. I'm shocked I don't see more of them out on the field. Honestly my CS2 sits in my bag most days lol

I also find the arc bolt just as idiot proof as the Gama core.

Source: I am an idiot when it comes to working on stuff lol
Iíve come really close to buying a bnib DSR and starting over, but with the DSR 2 in the works Iím holding off. Yep, arc bolt is just bomb proof. Favorite Drive ever.
Quote:
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Just an FYI -

Bolt speed and bolt force are two separate functions, and aren't necessarily linked. Reliability comes from force, not speed. The Gamma is staged and actually quite slow in the initial stage (the one that matters), but employs high shift force to achieve great reliability. Think of it as a diesel - low engine speeds but enough torque to push through anything in its way. The ARC is similar in its design but handles the staging a little differently.

I would argue that ultimate paint handling is more of a result of face design, breech positioning and stack control than speed or force alone. The Force doesn't have a remarkably low bolt speed or bolt force, but has caught a reputation for its paint handling capability. There are other markers that are designed to do just as good of a job, while being just as reliable.

But I do stand but what I've always told you - you should keep the Force in your gearbag, as it will always work reliably, which is right up your alley.
Yeah I really over over simplified my explanation of my thoughts about the subject, but youíre right. So many other factors come into play. Iím still thinking about off loading the Force. I feel like as long as Iíve got the DSR and Geo 4 as my main go to options in fall and winter, Iíll be covered. Basically having two out of the three best paint handling markers available ( roughly and imho ), I should be covered. OTOH it is nice knowing you have such a solid shooter in the gear bag as well.

How would you rate paint handling for these new mechanical guns? The emeks, CS2Mech, etc. How do they compare to letís say... your covid cocker? I know Stealthy really believes that the ID cockers are phenomenal shooting ultra brittle paint. And I love that idea, cockers were my first love in the paintball world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Papa Pink View Post


Never have I read something that is filled with so much incorrect, misguided information.

I'm out. Good Luck Gentlemen.
Iím looking forward to getting the LV2/Etek from PE so I can utilize the drop shot.
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Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM #3539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
I’ve come really close to buying a bnib DSR and starting over, but with the DSR 2 in the works I’m holding off. Yep, arc bolt is just bomb proof. Favorite Drive ever.

Yeah I really over over simplified my explanation of my thoughts about the subject, but you’re right. So many other factors come into play. I’m still thinking about off loading the Force. I feel like as long as I’ve got the DSR and Geo 4 as my main go to options in fall and winter, I’ll be covered. Basically having two out of the three best paint handling markers available ( roughly and imho ), I should be covered. OTOH it is nice knowing you have such a solid shooter in the gear bag as well.

How would you rate paint handling for these new mechanical guns? The emeks, CS2Mech, etc. How do they compare to let’s say... your covid cocker? I know Stealthy really believes that the ID cockers are phenomenal shooting ultra brittle paint. And I love that idea, cockers were my first love in the paintball world.



I’m looking forward to getting the LV2/Etek from PE so I can utilize the drop shot.
To be clear. The Inception Designs cockers have excellent paint handling for a cocker. I believe this is a combination of the intelligent bolt design, choice of detents, and the GTR ram. The fact that you need to underbore with a cocker to prevent rollouts though puts it at a disadvantage for paint handling vs something like the mechanical Gamma Core guns. If I was wanting to shoot super brittle stuff in mech, my money would be towards something like a mechanical CS2 running an overbore barrel. For a choice autococker that I would actually play and compete with, the ID cockers are my #1 choice.
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Old Today, 08:21 AM #3540
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How would you rate paint handling for these new mechanical guns? The emeks, CS2Mech, etc. How do they compare to letís say... your covid cocker?
The mechanical components of paint handling characteristics of a marker don't inherently change based on how it's actuated (mechanically or electronically). The aspects that are in contact with the ball and influencing its movement are all the same - so, the paint handling of a Gamma is what it is regardless of anything else.

As for cockers, I think there's something to be said about gently pre-loading the ball into the barrel prior to it being ejected. This is purely anecdotal, which goes against how I prefer to operate and think, but I've noticed that I can underbore very successfully with a cocker (which is a common best practice for obvious reasons) but see squeeze-related breaks in open bolt markers with the same paint and barrel. Possibly coincidental, I haven't truly put that theory to the test, but it is something I've noted.
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Old Today, 11:37 AM #3541
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Quote:
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The mechanical components of paint handling characteristics of a marker don't inherently change based on how it's actuated (mechanically or electronically). The aspects that are in contact with the ball and influencing its movement are all the same - so, the paint handling of a Gamma is what it is regardless of anything else.

As for cockers, I think there's something to be said about gently pre-loading the ball into the barrel prior to it being ejected. This is purely anecdotal, which goes against how I prefer to operate and think, but I've noticed that I can underbore very successfully with a cocker (which is a common best practice for obvious reasons) but see squeeze-related breaks in open bolt markers with the same paint and barrel. Possibly coincidental, I haven't truly put that theory to the test, but it is something I've noted.
Yeah I think you are onto something with the underbore piece for closed bolt vs open bolt. A well tuned cocker does seem to handle paint quite well despite the underbore piece.
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Old Today, 05:14 PM #3542
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I suppose it's possible that the breach to barrel transition being unpressurized in the cocker's case could mean the ball isn't pancaked when it goes into the underbore.
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Old Today, 07:39 PM #3543
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Thinking back 20ish years of paintball I think I've had less paint breakage with cockers than anything else.
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Old Today, 07:44 PM #3544
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Whenever I shot a cocker I always used an overbore barrel. Yes a ball would roll out if I had my barrel pointed down, but I didnít care. I would just pull the trigger to load another ball, and I was always tilting my cocker up to drop paint in. I never had a problem breaking paint this way either.

One year I got a Karnivore and it would break paint. I was kind of devastated. I always wanted one and I just wasnít expecting it to break paint. It was also my second electro ever.

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I couldnít resist. My Clutch hasnít arrived yet, it should be soon though. But I had to get this for reasons.
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