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Old 01-07-2020, 02:33 PM #1
MeowMeowMeow
Forgot my old SN & PWs...
 
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Why the disdain for DMs?

Hello,

Been pretty removed from the paintball world until I started playing again recently.

I can't help but notice that nobody seems to be shooting Dye Markers anymore. Also, the overall feel on PBN is that Dyes markers are no longer competitive and nobody wants them.

Aside from the resale value issue, what other factors am I missing?

Thank you.
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:54 PM #2
Mr. Charlie
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Just the resale pretty much.

The reason for that is the old yearly releases Dye used to do.

The DSR and M3 series are changing that and their resale is holding a little better too.

I think they also had somewhat of a reputation for being “unreliable” due to the LPR and amount and kind of Orings.

Again the DSR and M3 series are changing that opinion among most of the people that have tried them.

Both the DSR and M3s had a few small issues when originally released but all should have updated or upgraded parts installed by now.

With the updates and/or upgrades both the DSR and M3 series are the best in their respective categories in my opinion.
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Old 01-07-2020, 03:40 PM #3
MeowMeowMeow
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Well I guess that's good for bottom feeders like me. DMs felt the most comfortable and I had good luck with the PMs/DMs I own.

currently shooting a DM14XX right now and looking for a spare marker for a backup or if I want to introduce a friend to paintball.

Is it realistic to see early versions of PMs/DMs for $100?

I remember picking up a stock PM5 for $100 about 4 years ago- perfectly fine for rec ball.

tangent question- what CAN i get for $100 for former 'high-end' guns?
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Old 01-07-2020, 03:49 PM #4
Mr. Charlie
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You can still find PM5s for ~$150.

That’s probably the best cheaper, older Marker that I’d recommend. I believe that you can still get any replacement parts that you could possibly need.
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Old 01-08-2020, 12:18 PM #5
MeowMeowMeow
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Thank you for the response.

I'll see what the used markets has to offer.

I enjoy the 14 very much- seems such overkill for rec play.
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:52 AM #6
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You can find PM5s for <$100, I've bought many between $60-90. Even DM4, DM5, PM6 show up <$100 once in a while in the wild (IE not here usually)

barring those two, 2006-2008 DM/PM markers tend to sit $150-200 and 2009-2015 between $200-350.

Don't let the forum fool you, your instinct is right - older DYE (and frankly MOST non-STBB older markers since the mid-2000s) hold up just fine. Unless you're competing on looks. And let's be honest, much of paintball is a peacock show
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:56 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mueller View Post
You can find PM5s for <$100, I've bought many between $60-90. Even DM4, DM5, PM6 show up <$100 once in a while in the wild (IE not here usually)

barring those two, 2006-2008 DM/PM markers tend to sit $150-200 and 2009-2015 between $200-350.

Don't let the forum fool you, your instinct is right - older DYE (and frankly MOST non-STBB older markers since the mid-2000s) hold up just fine. Unless you're competing on looks. And let's be honest, much of paintball is a peacock show
There's definitely truth to your peacock show comment.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:33 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMeowMeow View Post
Hello,

Been pretty removed from the paintball world until I started playing again recently.

I can't help but notice that nobody seems to be shooting Dye Markers anymore. Also, the overall feel on PBN is that Dyes markers are no longer competitive and nobody wants them.

Aside from the resale value issue, what other factors am I missing?

Thank you.
Welcome back. Dye is doing pretty well with the DSR/M3/Rize combination now in my opinion. I see plenty of them around in fB groups and locally. Not as popular as PE, Empire (who had the market cornered on the $300-$400 marker for YEARS), or Shocker Paintball/Luxe, but still respectable. Frankly, I don't remember Dye markers ever really being massively popular, at least not in my market.

Performance isn't the reason people aren't shooting Dye markers in 2020. The M3 and DSR are right there at the cutting edge of the industry. They both get very, very good efficiency, have fantastic shots, are very reliable, have great ergonomics, and the M3 I'd argue has the nicest factory anno in the industry (and I don't even think it's remotely close).

There's a legit stigma with Dye markers not holding their value. That'll change over time if Dye continues their current release strategy IMO (aka, not releasing new markers every year for kicks). Years and years of annual releases created a cycle that'll take time to break.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:53 AM #9
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if you really look at the evolution. players got brainwashed that we should not have or very little maintenance needed on a marker. and very little need to tune a marker. PE really started this mindset imo. Dye kept the Lpr for a while to what you see now. then others joined so Dye had to in reality for sales.
Dye was releasing the revised DM's yearly but so was other leading manufactures and no one batted an eye at them. but thats paintball. any older high end gun that can be programmed to the lower bps will still keep up today. it was highend then and pro's still used them and so did many of the public consumers. still today. paint may be smaller some what today. but still no issues in older markers. Lpr's are easy to use and require little maint. if you get a loaner for a friend i would suggest a marker that doesnt have the Lpr so they dont tinker with it and then you are just having tuning issues instead of playing time.
people just need to stop trying to get the lowest lpr and hpr when a marker is not fully designed to do that in some older markers. because its just not all about the psi. its about the timing of the solenoid and psi. and you cant change the board settings of the solenoid's timing.
on the flip side i dont mind used DM's selling for less than perception. yay for when i need.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:47 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the korean1 View Post
players got brainwashed that we should not have or very little maintenance needed on a marker. and very little need to tune a marker. PE really started this mindset imo.

“Brainwashed”? I think less maintenance is a positive, especially when you need your guns and teammates guns to stay functioning for an entire tournament.

Interesting coincidence, I just aired up a DM7 that was working perfectly when I last shot it and put it up on my shelf, and now it has a leak somewhere in the bolt...

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Old 01-14-2020, 12:51 PM #11
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BTW, I have also been amazed at the drop in value of late-model dye matrix guns. I’ve heard it blamed on pro players unloading sponsored guns, but there can’t be that many guns out there to effect value that much? It seems like the issue was just releasing a new model every year with incremental cosmetic changes had that impact.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:55 PM #12
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PSS - my DM7 really does shoot amazing and is still NXL gun-mode legal.
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:33 PM #13
Mr. Charlie
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I get what he’s saying.

It’s like P.E. became the standard for reliability and simplicity and all of a sudden no one wants to maintain their Markers or have to change any settings themselves.

Pick up and play is what “most” people seem to want, with as little maintenance as possible.

It’s somewhat understandable but not at the trade off of shot quality.

Pretty much all Manufacturers have moved towards more simple designs that need less maintenance.


Also, at the same time Dye was catching heat for yearly releases with minimal changes barely anyone bats an eye at P.E. doing the same exact thing lol. Dye’s resale tanks but P.E.’s stays relatively high.
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:44 PM #14
mueller
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Also didn't help that Dye used urethane orings in the very hardest-to-service spots of their markers, for over a decade

Urethane orings made the most sense from an engineering/spec standpoint but they disintegrate after 5-10yrs, rendering the marker unusable. Probably why the guy a few posts above took a perfect-shooting 2007 marker off the wall and had issues.

The good news is you can put BUNA orings in those spots when servicing (2x017 in bolt, a 006 in LPR, a 007 in HPR)
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:07 PM #15
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I rebuilt my DM7 with new orings when I bought it a couple of years ago. I use a mix of HBNR (static seals) and cast-urethane disogrin (for bolt orings). No idea what the leak is from.

FWIW people are virtually begging PE to release another Ego/LV-series gun while a CS2 can be found for under $1K on the reg. LV1s are trending up in value.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:14 PM #16
Mr. Charlie
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Dye is still using Polyurethane Orings in some places on their new Markers.

I believe it is usually Oil and Organic compounds in Lube that eventually cause Polyurethane to break down over time.

Viton and Buna are both more Oil and chemical resistant materials for Orings and Xrings.

But just be aware that Polyurethane can break down over time.
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Old 01-31-2020, 01:24 PM #17
MeowMeowMeow
Forgot my old SN & PWs...
 
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It's insane to me how late model DMs sells for only a 'little more' than DM6-10s.

I guess it's good for a bottom feeder me. Maybe if I get lucky I can find a good DM for $100 in the not too distant future.

For what it's worth (you guys are much more knowledable than me about Dyes)I don't ever recall having leaks with the DMs I shot in the pass as long as I clean and lube them after every session. Are current generation PE even simplistic than that?

If we're talking about reliability everybody just need to shoot a tippmann 98c
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