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Old 07-20-2021, 06:48 AM #3991
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I have been using Viton 60 durometer for those two Bolt Guide spots. Viton resists chemicals and compression really well!
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Old 07-20-2021, 12:55 PM #3992
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I think the Gamma bolt guide seal topic gets a bit confusing since there are two separate items that tend to get conflated -

1) The friction between the seal and bolt ID - higher durometer and/or larger OD seals will increase friction/breakaway force. Personally, I don't believe PE designed the parts and the interaction of those parts to incorporate more than "standard" friction into the equation - if you move the bolt on the guide seals of a new, unaltered assembly, you'll see that the movement is smooth, normal and not excessively tight or loose. THIS IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND - the staging (slower first stage) is handled solely by the orifice size, NOT a tight fitment between the guide seals and bolt ID.

DLX/SP have to apply the bandaid of friction to aid in the staging because the orifice size is 50% larger than what PE specs. If they would shrink the orifice size, they wouldn't have to rely on excessive friction to control the first stage. Richard Jones primarily tinkers with DLX/SP markers, so what works there DOES NOT necessarily apply (or need to apply) to PE assemblies. Him and I talk from time to time, and he should understand all of this.

2) The longevity of the seal - first, let's talk about what that seal has to do in order to do its job. It has to SEAL AGAINST THE BOLT ID - ie, it can't allow blowby. That's it - friction aside, as long as that seal is forming a positive seal on the bolt ID, it's doing its job. This can obviously be difficult to properly judge, I get that. Here's what I recommend:

- Judge 1 seal at a time - with just the front or rear sear in place, hold the assembly with the bolt down. If the bolt slides off, the seal may not be doing its job when under pressure. Replace it. Do that with both seals independently.

- After that, with both seals in place, you should be able to hold the assembly by the bolt (bolt up) without the guide/rest of assembly sliding off.

In terms of longevity, urethane generally has better abrasion resistance than buna, but that doesn't mean buna is a poor choice there. PE wouldn't spec buna if it wasn't a perfectly adequate choice of material. I haven't tested urethane in those locations for long enough to gauge the compression set manners, but it is generally not as good as buna. I've had 70 duro cast urethane 013s in my GP for a few months without a noticeable change in friction or shape (when viewing them from the side). X-Rings (70 duro buna) have also held up remarkably well, as I never actually wore a set out. I'm still running them in my 170R and have been for something like two years. I expect both seals to do their job for plenty long.

Note: These seals see prolonged compression while the bolt is at rest in its rearward position, such as storage. However, most seals in a paintball marker do, so this isn't uncommon. Additionally, the seals see clipping loads since the bolt fully decouples from them during its forward stroke, and return stroke. PE does a nice job of designing the rear chamfer and surface roughness of the bolt ID to aid in seal longevity.

Lastly, as I've said before in this thread, I think this "issue" gets too much press time. I don't actually view it as an issue, as the design is necessary, given the overall Gamma function. Those seals aren't being exposed to unique loads not seen in other systems, or anything like that (Axe bolt guide, Infinity valve seal come to mind). Run whatever you want, take 1 minute every few months to inspect the condition/ability of the seals, and go on with your life. Replace them once a year (??) and don't think twice about it.
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Old 07-20-2021, 04:38 PM #3993
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I tend to agree that the issue is overblown (admittedly by me.)

Most of my Gamma Core markers use an X ring for the rear bolt guide o-ring. They have lasted a lot longer than I thought they would as one has about 30 cases on it now or so ... still looks brand new.

The TM-40 I still have here is still using the stock o-rings ... given the larger issue with the engine design, the x-rings will not help in any way. DLX needs to fix the issue and the room balls have to roll around in the breach.
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Old 07-20-2021, 08:53 PM #3994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyDuckGizmo View Post
So I know gamma core/pro paint handling re: the bolt guide orings is pretty well understood by all at this point. Is there a consensus on an alternative oring to use that maybe lasts longer in the second bolt guide oring position? Viton, polyurethane, xring? A fatter metric oring? Or just stick with stock NBR70 013?
impeded tipped me off to using X-rings there and my results have been excellent with every Gamma Core marker I have tried it with. The X-rings handle the compression a lot better and pretty much negates the fit issue at least for me.

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Old 07-21-2021, 08:04 PM #3995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imped4now View Post
It has to SEAL AGAINST THE BOLT ID - ie, it can't allow blowby. That's it - friction aside, as long as that seal is forming a positive seal on the bolt ID, it's doing its job.
This is more or less what I needed to hear. I didn't know the distinction between just not allowing blowby/orifice size vs relying on friction to slow the bolt. Obviously controlling the bolt speed with the orifice size is a good design because that should never change.

I have probably changed bolt guide orings more than necessary then. I have had occasional random ball breakage with my cs2 for about as long as I have owned it (beginning of 2019, I think). It might occur at a rate of one or two incidents per case I shoot and I can't account for it in any way.
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Old 07-22-2021, 01:41 AM #3996
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New Gear Drop ( no links provided )

Just wanted to mention the recent drop of new gear from popular paintball manufacturers.

FL 3 Way Valve for Emek and EMF100
Right as I order my Team Smoke Package, Fat Trigger and Deadlywind hAIR 45 valve, Planet Eclipse drops this nice sounding upgrade for their entry level mechanical markers. Btw, the Fat Trigger and hAIR valve combo works! But it still has a tendency to fart and sound like itís misfiring- and maybe thatís not happening, but thatís the best way I can describe it. But otherwise ease of trigger pull and increased ball or two you can shoot faster is going to be worth it for some. Or many.

It sounds like the FL 3 Way Valve is going to be a tad bit slower, but the trigger pull sounds like itíll be better then stock, and faster as well. Maybe not as fast as the hAIR, but it wonít have the tendency to fart and or half-fire. To me that is going to be worth trying and possibly trading out for permanently. I still very much miss the absolutely solid firing mechanics of the CS2MECH, so much so that I want to get back into one again. I predict this new valve option will reproduce the performance of the CS2Mech or at least come very close to it, and Iím a very big fan of the ergonomics, so yeah, letís try it.

TFX 3 Loader
Looks good and sounds like a solid offering. Not as tempting to me though, Iím quite happy with my Dye LTR or R2, and or Spire and CTRL loaders. The LTR to me is the cheapest but most solid and reliable loader. Still though, for the guys that want the new new, HK provides a nice new option.

Infamous Paintball
Infamous X Freak Complete FXL SS Black Nitride Bore master Insert + FXL Barrel Kit ( thatís a mouth full lol ). Tempting to me because 1) I like SS inserts, 2) itís blacked out and matte/dust finish, 3) I think the Silencio Tip is legit, 4) and to me itís a one and done kit. The newly designed carrying case looks neat. Alas I chose not to get it because I already have a full SS insert kit and a Silencio Tip.

Silencio Pro FL Barrel Tip Ti. Limited run. Itís made of titanium. Yes I ordered one... $179.95. Iím a sucker for titanium and I already have at least one insert for it.

I gotta hand it to Infamous Paintball. They keep getting my money. I like the cool new stuff they release. Iíve been happy with the barrel tips and the gloves. If I was a bigger fan Iíd buy their jerseys and more, they make cool stuff, stuff I actually like and use.
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Old 07-22-2021, 07:23 AM #3997
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Barrels...

They continue to be the industry's biggest money grab. Good for them, I suppose.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:20 AM #3998
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After paintball markers, barrels are probably my second most frequently bought item.
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Old 07-22-2021, 07:57 PM #3999
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The silencio does not really deliver any benefit. The long, skinny ports actually create a capillary action that draws water into the barrel... It's the mechanism that trees use to carry water up the trunk. You can see this effect in one of their promotional videos. Additionally, the slots appear to be manufactured using a wheel cutter which leaves a sharp edge on the ID of the barrel. The design isn't particularly quiet and linear porting would resist water ingress better.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:30 PM #4000
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I've got extra 3/4" copper pipe in the garage I've been meaning to try out. Should be a fun comparison.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:26 PM #4001
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Iíd have to disagree, John, based on what my own eyes saw. Just played a tournament a couple months ago where the Silencio had its opportunity to show if it really works or not. Two points it just poured down rain, and in one of the points I was shooting down the wire on d side. My paint was pretty much as accurate as could be, no problems controlling the wire, shooting hoppers etc, and I noticed the paint coming at me was not accurate, inconsistent in itís grouping. I felt like I definitely had the advantage in that moment.

In a few occasions up here in practice weíve played in some steady rain. It wasnít the sheer downpour like at the tournament, but heavy enough at times to effect accuracy. You could definitely see the zingers, knuckle balls, curve balls, just the paint going everywhere but where you wanted it seemed like. The Silencio shot the same paint but it didnít have the same behavior, just pretty much a normal shot grouping.

Iím open to trying an experiment like pouring a constant stream of water over a Silencio in ramp and single shots, while shooting at a target, and do the same for barrels with normal porting. If thereís no difference in accuracy Iíll be surprised but admit the Silencio has no benefit. If the Silencio appears to be more accurate then itíll just confirm what I believe it to be.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:16 PM #4002
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Yeah, please test it. Cognitive bias is a hard thing to overcome, but evidence trumps anecdotes and even hypothesis. I could have my mind changed. Linear porting with a certain amount of open area is linear porting with open area. Now, the rain drops are either going to hit that line of open area or not. Just talking about probability, more area (in addition to capillary action) is a disadvantage.
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Old 07-22-2021, 11:15 PM #4003
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No experience with the Silencio but for optimum performance in rain ive always just run some sort of rain tip (no porting) or covered the barrel tip with electrical tape. Its loud as hell but works great and also helps reduce the mist effect/obscuration caused by the shots.

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Old Yesterday, 12:47 AM #4004
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Before I got a Silencio I ran with an Aaron Carter whoosh/Rain tip, compatible only with Dye barrel backs. One of my favorite barrel tips in my collection, it’s just got a ton of cool factor. And yes, works great in the rain. You can also stuff a micro fiber in the sheath ( it legit looks like a silencer tip ) to try to muffle the sounds signature. I felt like it didn’t do much as far as suppressing the sound of my markers. Shrugs*

John I’ll give it a try and I’ll film it too. It’s got me curious now. I’m open to changing my mind as well.
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Old Yesterday, 08:48 AM #4005
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Watch what happens at @0:04-0:07 in this video:


You can actually see the capillary action happening as the water is drawn into the port and spreads out. If it was just a small hole, the surface tension of the water would keep it from entering the port in the first place.
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Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM #4006
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Mmm surface tension.
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Old Yesterday, 04:23 PM #4007
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Quote:
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Mmm surface tension.
You are weird, Sir.

I was going to go play tomorrow, but it looks like the new Force will be delivered tomorrow. So ... shooting paint in the backyard it is.
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Old Yesterday, 08:38 PM #4008
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You are weird, Sir.
Maybe you're not weird enough, eh?

But seriously, I was performing surface tension testing (Dyne) on some aluminum parts yesterday at work. That's not a term I see mentioned often, so it made me chuckle.
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Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM #4009
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John, I definitely see it, but... is it dripping through? It seems like the water pools into the slit but doesn’t allow much of it to bleed into it, coating the surface inside, or dripping. Let me try to grab a video of my little experiment to see if we can confirm what I’m thinking is happening.

Impe,
You working with alodine by chance?
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Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM #4010
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That's one drop and the water is being drawn to the inside. Once the port reaches saturation, then gravity takes over and it drops inside. In theory, a hydrophobic micromesh would be an ideal rain barrel, but I think it'd be fairly cost-prohibitive. None of this even considers the fact that the slotted ports aren't really ideal for energy (sound) dissipation either. Linear porting with sufficiently small holes would be better in every performance metric than the silencio. Lol, fortunately/ unfortunately, the company I work for found its start making barrels and I've done all I can while keeping the boss' legacy and aesthetic intact. The ironmen used to use boomsticks that just had little divots instead of port holes for rain.
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Old Today, 12:19 AM #4011
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Quote:
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The ironmen used to use boomsticks that just had little divots instead of port holes for rain.
In case you didn't know; you could sell those...
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