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Old 08-06-2021, 04:33 PM #64
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PE shills are annoying. No one gives a **** about your bolt design or who stole it. You didn't invent the spool style of marker and even if you did, to expect no one to copy features or design shows a severe lack of maturity in your manufacturing philosophy. Good companies understand a products life cycle and that IF it is revolutionary, you have a very limited time to capitalize, grab market share and make money before you have competitors popping up with almost identical products. Done listening to yall *****.
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Old 08-06-2021, 05:09 PM #65
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^Buy your ****ty Gamma Core rip-off, just don’t complain when it breaks Paint because they don’t know what they are doing lol!
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:47 PM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (dr) View Post
PE shills are annoying. No one gives a **** about your bolt design or who stole it. You didn't invent the spool style of marker and even if you did, to expect no one to copy features or design shows a severe lack of maturity in your manufacturing philosophy. Good companies understand a products life cycle and that IF it is revolutionary, you have a very limited time to capitalize, grab market share and make money before you have competitors popping up with almost identical products. Done listening to yall *****.
This is such a BS recycled response to this topic. You know what you all have in common? You don't understand what makes the Gamma unique.

Learn how it functions and profit. Until then, you'll look like a short-sighted dork.
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:55 PM #67
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Is it me or does the milling look a little like the PB Nation background?


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Old 08-06-2021, 07:22 PM #68
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^Buy your ****ty Gamma Core rip-off, just donít complain when it breaks Paint because they donít know what they are doing lol!
I donít know... Adrenalineís TM40 is building a good track record when it comes to paint handling.
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Old 08-07-2021, 07:28 PM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (dr) View Post
PE shills are annoying. No one gives a **** about your bolt design or who stole it. You didn't invent the spool style of marker and even if you did, to expect no one to copy features or design shows a severe lack of maturity in your manufacturing philosophy. Good companies understand a products life cycle and that IF it is revolutionary, you have a very limited time to capitalize, grab market share and make money before you have competitors popping up with almost identical products. Done listening to yall *****.
People do care though and not just PE fans/owners. They have gotten a lot of criticism from other engineers in the industry.

I will say this, I think the guns shoot nice and the paint handling seems to be good enough. I’d still rather shoot the original though and it is better executed than the TM-40 in a few areas even outside of the cores/bolts. The milling on this Adrenaline version is also just absolutely amazing.

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Old 08-10-2021, 12:17 PM #70
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^Buy your ****ty Gamma Core rip-off, just don’t complain when it breaks Paint because they don’t know what they are doing lol!
My luxe X doesn't break paint though so I don't understand your point at all there.

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This is such a BS recycled response to this topic. You know what you all have in common? You don't understand what makes the Gamma unique.

Learn how it functions and profit. Until then, you'll look like a short-sighted dork.
To suggest I don't understand what makes it special because I bought a gun that supposedly is a copy is completely contradictory.

Maybe I bought a gun that copied the core because I like it's performance but wanted a different overall marker feel/design?

Bashing people for buying stuff that they prefer will ruin competition. It's toxic and does nothing to help the industry. Imagine if shills went around shouting down everyone that didn't shoot GI paint because they thought they had the best fill.

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Old 08-18-2021, 07:16 AM #71
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My luxe X doesn't break paint though so I don't understand your point at all there.



To suggest I don't understand what makes it special because I bought a gun that supposedly is a copy is completely contradictory.

Maybe I bought a gun that copied the core because I like it's performance but wanted a different overall marker feel/design?

Bashing people for buying stuff that they prefer will ruin competition. It's toxic and does nothing to help the industry. Imagine if shills went around shouting down everyone that didn't shoot GI paint because they thought they had the best fill.
Well, to be fair he's not bashing your character. He's saying that if you understand what makes Gamma special you'll understand that X is a copy.

I also want to juxtapose your last paragraph with this:
Quote:
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PE shills are annoying. No one gives a **** about your bolt design or who stole it... Done listening to yall *****.
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Old 08-18-2021, 04:18 PM #72
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Well, to be fair he's not bashing your character. He's saying that if you understand what makes Gamma special you'll understand that X is a copy.

I also want to juxtapose your last paragraph with this:
I didn't say he was bashing my character.

I was pointing out that suggesting I don't understand what makes it special, but saying that I bought a gun that copied it (ie: I like the design) is contradictory.

It's great that they copied it. I get an air efficient, consistent marker without having to deal with the awful rubber grips and ergos.

It's a matter of preference and the fact that people get so butthurt by it that they have to come to any luxe related thread to make it know that "you copied the gamma core" points to an overall ignorance of product development overall.

When someone makes something new and great, it will get copied.

It's the companies job to market and protect their patent long enough to make money off of their innovation before the market keeps up.

If they are unwilling/unable to do so, then they will have a much shorter product life cycle and be forced to innovate again or rely on superior customer service/other facets of business to continue to stay profitable.

Why don't we talk about how PE releases 1.x versions that are essentially the same **** over and over and continue to charge high MSRP?

The TM40 is just dlx saying "hey, we can do this too" rather than coming up with a new design again.
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Old 08-18-2021, 04:28 PM #73
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^ I am 100% OK with someone acknowledging that the bolt is a copy and stating that they simply like it better. It is pretty similar ergo wise to the Ice so for anyone who has been shooting Luxe for a long time I think it makes sense to go for one.

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Old 08-18-2021, 04:51 PM #74
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points to an overall ignorance of product development overall.
Given my educational and professional pedigree inside and outside the paintball industry, I don't think you could say I'm ignorant of product development... I simply don't define ethics by legality. Not all of us hold to a position of ethical egoism and it's probably true that those who reject it believe that stealing a design is:

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toxic and does nothing to help the industry.
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Old 08-18-2021, 05:58 PM #75
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Thereís probably zero chance this wonít upset people today. Maybe this can help us heal and move on? I doubt it and I donít want to sway peeps from speaking their minds, but here it is.

I wouldnít mind seeing a thread keeping tabs on ďcopyingĒ. And I get innovating and improving on things. And I also get just copying someone elseís homework- but making small changes here and there to make it look different enough. Do we explain decisions and ethics going with any of these examples? Goldie had a great explanation of why he wonít buy any product from the Gardner Brothers, and I totally respect where heís coming from.

To my fuzzy understanding- Macdev copied the iv core and the chrome regency drive. The iv core originally was a DP engine? The Intimidator was based on the Spyder. The M3s FL-21 is an evolved GTI engine. The Arc Drive is an evolution of the NT? The luxe x, Shocker AMP, TM40, all use a copy of the gamma core. Much salt needed in this next sentence- I heard a rumor but canít substantiate it, that the gamma core design was giving to PE? Thereís probably more that could be listed.

To me it clearly seems like this industry is based on copying, borrowing, stealing, innovating, and evolving past and current tech. HK Army borrows all the signature design features from the best products, rolls all those features into one new product. Why? Probably because theyíre a company that needs to roll out fresh new product to keep the dollars rolling in. Itís hard coming up with original new ideas, especially when it comes to drives/engines. How many iterations of the paint pod are we going to see?

What would happen if companies stopped copying? Would they still sell enough of the old stuff they made to keep the doors open? Would that make consumers happy?

Via like 2002- I remember Splat Attack owner ( brick and mortar store ), Rick, explaining to me how his ads in the back of magazines didnít really help his store. He also said players always want the newest stuff, and by the time he got new stuff in stock, newer stuff was being released and then heíd be sitting on product that just sat and never got sold. He acknowledged back then that a website was the way to go. He definitely made it known that it was a challenge for store owners to make a profit.

That kind of explains the nature of the business side of the sport. Just keep churning out new product no matter what. The alternative is stagnant sales. Players love new releases and 99 percent of them are clueless to the stories and decisions behind them. I get educating people here about the politics and history of this topic, and the passion there is completely apparent, but I think once you tell them, theyíre just going to turn their faces back to the screen, ogling the new release. They just donít care enough.

The other reality is, of explaining and pointing out copying, companies being lazy and unethical, or too dumb to be original, whatever, is people love being right. They love winning an online argument. Especially.. ESPECIALLY online. That virtuous, morally superior, and smug feeling is todayís new high of choice. lay some facts down. Boom. End of discussion. You are right. I donít get that feeling so much here, but more so on Facebook. Here I can see the geeks and nerds who are genuinely passionate about this stuff. More power to them.

Where do I stand? Admittedly I am the guy who you tell the tragic story to, and then I turn around and go make bad decisions. I hate paintball politics, I just want my drug of choice, which is playing paintball, and use and do whatever I want. Let the paintball gods judge me, I probably wonít be attending Valhallaís festivities in the paintball afterlife. Cheers.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:30 PM #76
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Originally Posted by Noa Bo View Post
There’s probably zero chance this won’t upset people today. Maybe this can help us heal and move on? I doubt it and I don’t want to sway peeps from speaking their minds, but here it is.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a thread keeping tabs on “copying”. And I get innovating and improving on things. And I also get just copying someone else’s homework- but making small changes here and there to make it look different enough. Do we explain decisions and ethics going with any of these examples? Goldie had a great explanation of why he won’t buy any product from the Gardner Brothers, and I totally respect where he’s coming from.

To my fuzzy understanding- Macdev copied the iv core and the chrome regency drive. The iv core originally was a DP engine? The Intimidator was based on the Spyder. The M3s FL-21 is an evolved GTI engine. The Arc Drive is an evolution of the NT? The luxe x, Shocker AMP, TM40, all use a copy of the gamma core. Much salt needed in this next sentence- I heard a rumor but can’t substantiate it, that the gamma core design was giving to PE? There’s probably more that could be listed.

To me it clearly seems like this industry is based on copying, borrowing, stealing, innovating, and evolving past and current tech. HK Army borrows all the signature design features from the best products, rolls all those features into one new product. Why? Probably because they’re a company that needs to roll out fresh new product to keep the dollars rolling in. It’s hard coming up with original new ideas, especially when it comes to drives/engines. How many iterations of the paint pod are we going to see?

What would happen if companies stopped copying? Would they still sell enough of the old stuff they made to keep the doors open? Would that make consumers happy?

Via like 2002- I remember Splat Attack owner ( brick and mortar store ), Rick, explaining to me how his ads in the back of magazines didn’t really help his store. He also said players always want the newest stuff, and by the time he got new stuff in stock, newer stuff was being released and then he’d be sitting on product that just sat and never got sold. He acknowledged back then that a website was the way to go. He definitely made it known that it was a challenge for store owners to make a profit.

That kind of explains the nature of the business side of the sport. Just keep churning out new product no matter what. The alternative is stagnant sales. Players love new releases and 99 percent of them are clueless to the stories and decisions behind them. I get educating people here about the politics and history of this topic, and the passion there is completely apparent, but I think once you tell them, they’re just going to turn their faces back to the screen, ogling the new release. They just don’t care enough.

The other reality is, of explaining and pointing out copying, companies being lazy and unethical, or too dumb to be original, whatever, is people love being right. They love winning an online argument. Especially.. ESPECIALLY online. That virtuous, morally superior, and smug feeling is today’s new high of choice. lay some facts down. Boom. End of discussion. You are right. I don’t get that feeling so much here, but more so on Facebook. Here I can see the geeks and nerds who are genuinely passionate about this stuff. More power to them.

Where do I stand? Admittedly I am the guy who you tell the tragic story to, and then I turn around and go make bad decisions. I hate paintball politics, I just want my drug of choice, which is playing paintball, and use and do whatever I want. Let the paintball gods judge me, I probably won’t be attending Valhalla’s festivities in the paintball afterlife. Cheers.
Unfortunately, the proof is in the pudding.

PE shills cannot stop with the "You copied the gamma core" **** and it's only exacerbated by Jack Woods coming in to post cheeky comments like he invented the spool valve.

They really cannot accept the fact that some people don't give a **** and simply prefer a different platform.

If it was only PE I guarantee you an lv 1.6 would cost even more than its already inflated price.
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Old 08-18-2021, 10:40 PM #77
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Lol you still think all spool valves are the same.
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:51 AM #78
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As someone who:

a. owns both a Gamma Core PE mech gun as well as an Adrenaline Luxe

b. uses both every single weekend and shoots several cases of paint through both

c. has zero affiliation with PE, SP, DLX, Adrenaline, etc....

I'll say that the shot quality between the two engines in a game time scenario is impossible to distinguish. Some of you get so caught up with how things "feel" while BS'ing with your friends and taking a few shots here and there, opposed to what the actual shot feels like during a game. The only performance difference between the two comes down to efficiency, and this is where the Luxe just dominates the mech game. In ten man mech, having the ability to take 13 pods and have the opportunity to shoot ALL OF THEM is huge. I can't do that with the CS2, the M170r, the EMEK, my Autocockers, etc.

If all you care about is performance in the mech game, there is really only one answer. Admittedly, I have a personal love for Autocockers. I may enjoy shooting them more than all the other options, but that doesn't make them the best. I also enjoy driving my 86 Jeep CJ7 Renegade, but that doesn't make it the best.

Right now, the best in the mech game is the Adrenaline Luxe. Anyone who has shot them all that says otherwise is letting personal bias determine their decision.
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:11 AM #79
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I heard a rumor but canít substantiate it, that the gamma core design was giving to PE?
For those reading later, this is in fact, false.
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:27 AM #80
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Quote:
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As someone who:

a. owns both a Gamma Core PE mech gun as well as an Adrenaline Luxe

b. uses both every single weekend and shoots several cases of paint through both

c. has zero affiliation with PE, SP, DLX, Adrenaline, etc....

I'll say that the shot quality between the two engines in a game time scenario is impossible to distinguish. Some of you get so caught up with how things "feel" while BS'ing with your friends and taking a few shots here and there, opposed to what the actual shot feels like during a game. The only performance difference between the two comes down to efficiency, and this is where the Luxe just dominates the mech game. In ten man mech, having the ability to take 13 pods and have the opportunity to shoot ALL OF THEM is huge. I can't do that with the CS2, the M170r, the EMEK, my Autocockers, etc.

If all you care about is performance in the mech game, there is really only one answer. Admittedly, I have a personal love for Autocockers. I may enjoy shooting them more than all the other options, but that doesn't make them the best. I also enjoy driving my 86 Jeep CJ7 Renegade, but that doesn't make it the best.

Right now, the best in the mech game is the Adrenaline Luxe. Anyone who has shot them all that says otherwise is letting personal bias determine their decision.
Good input, I definitely feel they make the best/most comfortable mech frame right now. Would probably favor the CS2 frame if it didn’t have the little hump under the trigger guard.

I am curious what size tank you are using? I could most certainly get this out of a CS2 depending on the tank size. My average owning four CS2s now has been 11-12 pods off of a 77/4500. I have never actually carried that many in a game, but it is nice piece of mind for when I go somewhere that gets low fills. The X, Amp and TM-40/Adrenaline all seem comparably efficient which definitely makes them major players for competitive play.

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Old 08-19-2021, 12:34 PM #81
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Unfortunately, the proof is in the pudding.

PE shills cannot stop with the "You copied the gamma core" **** and it's only exacerbated by Jack Woods coming in to post cheeky comments like he invented the spool valve.

They really cannot accept the fact that some people don't give a **** and simply prefer a different platform.

If it was only PE I guarantee you an lv 1.6 would cost even more than its already inflated price.

Let's just look at this comment alone as a nonsensical run around a cone from you like always.

1) All spool valves from their iteration to now are widely different in how they operate. The Gamma core was a such a massive breakthrough in spool tech that it can be equivocated to comparing a Model-T (original spools like Gen-E) to a Bugatti. PE did not invent the spool, but they made an industry breaking tech advancement that was so good, everyone else imitated it to try and steal a piece of that pie because it basically made all existing tech obsolete.

2) How would you feel if you spent 3 years designing and perfect said above ground-breaking engine, only to have it just so obviously stolen and cloned? Id be willing to bet if you were in the industry and it was your hard work and money it would be a different story. Imagine that every-time you did something at the job you work, someone else immediately took a piece of your paycheck and claimed it as their own work.

You seem quick to minimize this act. I don't say this in a disrespectful way, but often throughout history the non-creative love to minimalize the work of the creative.


3) The LV1.6 price is fairly competitive and in the range of what a marker of that caliber should cost. The cost of RD, machining, parts finishing, anodizing, assembling, testing, packaging, shipping, and advertising/support staff alone on the marker is probably in the $750-800 range, then they still need to add a markup on that to make some money for their work, plus an additional markup for the retailer to make some money as well, its not so out of the question. Plus they are making substantially smaller runs of these markers than others in their line or competitors so that factors into a higher cost as well.
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Old 08-19-2021, 04:52 PM #82
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Good input, I definitely feel they make the best/most comfortable mech frame right now. Would probably favor the CS2 frame if it didnít have the little hump under the trigger guard.

I am curious what size tank you are using? I could most certainly get this out of a CS2 depending on the tank size. My average owning four CS2s now has been 11-12 pods off of a 77/4500. I have never actually carried that many in a game, but it is nice piece of mind for when I go somewhere that gets low fills. The X, Amp and TM-40/Adrenaline all seem comparably efficient which definitely makes them major players for competitive play.
I use a 77/4500. Iíve seen videos where 14 pods were obtained, but I feel like those videos can be skewed to sway the opinion of the consumer. Iíve actually shot all 13 pods on my back, plus my CTRL hopper, and never saw drop off toward the end. To me, as a fat back player, itís so important to be able to count on my equipment that late in a game when every body, point, match matters.

And thatís a very good point on low fills as well. Just at ICC people were VERY worried about fills of 3000psi on Saturday. I was still carrying 10 pods at those times and was confident I could shoot all of them.
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Old 08-20-2021, 05:46 AM #83
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Originally Posted by yugo52 View Post
I use a 77/4500. Iíve seen videos where 14 pods were obtained, but I feel like those videos can be skewed to sway the opinion of the consumer. Iíve actually shot all 13 pods on my back, plus my CTRL hopper, and never saw drop off toward the end. To me, as a fat back player, itís so important to be able to count on my equipment that late in a game when every body, point, match matters.

And thatís a very good point on low fills as well. Just at ICC people were VERY worried about fills of 3000psi on Saturday. I was still carrying 10 pods at those times and was confident I could shoot all of them.
I think your numbers are a bit inflated. I have never achieved, nor seen anyone shoot over a case on a CS2 with a 77. I haven't even touched that with an 88 on any of the dozen plus ive owned.
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:35 AM #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeter4 View Post
I think your numbers are a bit inflated. I have never achieved, nor seen anyone shoot over a case on a CS2 with a 77. I haven't even touched that with an 88 on any of the dozen plus ive owned.
Sorry for the confusion, these numbers were with the Adrenaline Luxe, not the CS2.
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