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Old 08-20-2021, 08:12 AM #85
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I think your numbers are a bit inflated. I have never achieved, nor seen anyone shoot over a case on a CS2 with a 77. I haven't even touched that with an 88 on any of the dozen plus ive owned.
His numbers aren't inflated. He's using our gun not a CS2. I can get 15 pods easy on a 77 if you count the 1st pod as filling the hopper. I posted a video of doing 13 pods on a 4k fill (as that's all I had at the time) and the 1st 500 psi are way more useful than that last 500psi. At ICC they filled to 2700 tops Saturday morning and we were carrying 9 pods and shooting it all without drop. At the end of the games it was a huge advantage and I wish they hadn't fixed the compressors
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:18 AM #86
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The cost of RD, machining, parts finishing, anodizing, assembling, testing, packaging, shipping, and advertising/support staff alone on the marker is probably in the $750-800 range, then they still need to add a markup on that to make some money for their work, plus an additional markup for the retailer to make some money as well, its not so out of the question.
Don't forget the R&D cost of the new SMC solenoid. That thing wasn't cheap to make into a reality.
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I think your numbers are a bit inflated. I have never achieved, nor seen anyone shoot over a case on a CS2 with a 77. I haven't even touched that with an 88 on any of the dozen plus ive owned.
A CS2 should be able to shoot a case from an 88.

I've made a couple modifications to my own in an attempt to maximize efficiency with my GP, and it'll definitely approach a case from an 88. I need to do a larger sample to get exact numbers, though.
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:42 AM #87
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I don't work for DLX nor are we in any contract with them (could switch to Dye guns tomorrow). So my comments are my own. But I'll say this...
I know they spent well into 7 figures defending their patent of an electronic paintball gun fired by a solenoid patent (that was granted by the USPTO as unique enough) and finally gave up. They felt everyone was copying and they couldn't stop them without huge expense. Now at every electro event all guns are electronic paintball guns fired by a solenoid. Whether it is a violation or not isn't my point. They tried to protect what they felt was their IP and got hammered for it. But just like most industries that is how things work. In the auto industry everyone takes others ideas and attempts to improve them. Lucky for us they succeed and windshield wipers to seatbelts to transmissions are all getting better.

I was doing Shocker XLS when they did the X work so I can't say how much it is a copy, inspired by or neither of the gamma but my personal opinion is it looks like it. But on the TM40 we took the X core and had 18 months and 5 really smart people to tweak it. You give me (or anyone else of you smart folks on here) a stapler from Swingline and say you have 18 months to improve this I guarantee you'll have some better design (anti-jam, lighter, heavier who knows but something improved). I honestly don't think we would ever attempt a planet gun because we would spend a year and half trying to improve it and I'm afraid they would say you're crazy it cannot be improved it was already perfect (maybe I'm wrong here). We did improve on this core. It is the best there is currently. I hope someone else improves it from this point. I know we already have 3 things on a list for next gen. By mid 2022 we hope to have 20 things on a list and we will dive in. Heck we made 3 late changes from December 2020 to March 2021 that lowered the operation pressure 15 psi over those changes alone to where we are now at 95. You could say 115 vs 95 isn't much but maybe its that 20% that makes a difference, maybe it isn't. (NOTE to get 95 you have to use the electronic only spring).

As I said, my personal opinion is the X core was inspired fully by the gamma. My 2nd personal opinion is the TM40 core is currently the best implementation of it on earth. Everyone can disagree and that's completely fine but no one should sit back and relax but should keep improving because we're already tweaking and thinking about the next stapler and its going to be even better.
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:43 AM #88
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Since I'm stating personal opinions I have one final side note. Probably around Christmas the non-Adrenaline TM40 mech frame will debut. It has a larger opening than ours and basically the same as the Planet openings. I'm personally trying to get these openings on the next platform smaller (not this platform but whatever is next). People are walking mech triggers due to these opening sizes. Ours is already smaller and we may go smaller next gen without even a rule change but hopefully they make a rule change on a going forward basis (but allowing current products to be used until they break).
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:55 AM #89
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something related to the Gardner Bros that involves theft and them acting like a victim? color me shocked.
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:58 AM #90
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Originally Posted by James Graley View Post
Since I'm stating personal opinions I have one final side note. Probably around Christmas the non-Adrenaline TM40 mech frame will debut. It has a larger opening than ours and basically the same as the Planet openings. I'm personally trying to get these openings on the next platform smaller (not this platform but whatever is next). People are walking mech triggers due to these opening sizes. Ours is already smaller and we may go smaller next gen without even a rule change but hopefully they make a rule change on a going forward basis (but allowing current products to be used until they break).
What opening are you talking about? The exhaust ports/QEVs?
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:22 AM #91
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The distance front to back and more importantly top to bottom of the inside of the trigger guard area, i.e. People are getting 15 to 20 by walking the trigger just like an electronic but with some wrist twist. At the last ICPL there was a meeting after a few guys were doing it but no resolution.

Maybe someone like Noa has both frames and can show what I mean.
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:42 AM #92
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I don't work for DLX nor are we in any contract with them (could switch to Dye guns tomorrow). So my comments are my own. But I'll say this...
I know they spent well into 7 figures defending their patent of an electronic paintball gun fired by a solenoid patent (that was granted by the USPTO as unique enough) and finally gave up. They felt everyone was copying and they couldn't stop them without huge expense. Now at every electro event all guns are electronic paintball guns fired by a solenoid. Whether it is a violation or not isn't my point. They tried to protect what they felt was their IP and got hammered for it. But just like most industries that is how things work. In the auto industry everyone takes others ideas and attempts to improve them. Lucky for us they succeed and windshield wipers to seatbelts to transmissions are all getting better.

I was doing Shocker XLS when they did the X work so I can't say how much it is a copy, inspired by or neither of the gamma but my personal opinion is it looks like it. But on the TM40 we took the X core and had 18 months and 5 really smart people to tweak it. You give me (or anyone else of you smart folks on here) a stapler from Swingline and say you have 18 months to improve this I guarantee you'll have some better design (anti-jam, lighter, heavier who knows but something improved). I honestly don't think we would ever attempt a planet gun because we would spend a year and half trying to improve it and I'm afraid they would say you're crazy it cannot be improved it was already perfect (maybe I'm wrong here). We did improve on this core. It is the best there is currently. I hope someone else improves it from this point. I know we already have 3 things on a list for next gen. By mid 2022 we hope to have 20 things on a list and we will dive in. Heck we made 3 late changes from December 2020 to March 2021 that lowered the operation pressure 15 psi over those changes alone to where we are now at 95. You could say 115 vs 95 isn't much but maybe its that 20% that makes a difference, maybe it isn't. (NOTE to get 95 you have to use the electronic only spring).

As I said, my personal opinion is the X core was inspired fully by the gamma. My 2nd personal opinion is the TM40 core is currently the best implementation of it on earth. Everyone can disagree and that's completely fine but no one should sit back and relax but should keep improving because we're already tweaking and thinking about the next stapler and its going to be even better.

I mean, to be fair, they were unable to even prove that they actually invented said patented item and it was ruled non-defensible multiple times due to that fact that it severely impeded on the industries ability to develop new technology. Not to count they made their patent much too vague to be effective to defend.

There is a reason that they were unable to ever get an effective court ruling in their favor and they had to resort to just simply outlasting opponents bank rolls in every case they fought. All just my opinion though. If they had just focused on the development of their own tech and not wasted north of what I would guess was between $2-$4 million in the courts, they would have continued their insane dominance of the space. It was interesting how they didn't have a major interest in defending that patent heavily until the Nerve flopped and ICD, WDP, and Bob was massively cutting into their market share on stacked tubes and Dye was taking over the spool market.

We lost many good companies to that litigation and I still think AKA would be relevant to this day if it had not been for their forced closure of their doors. They were doing things in the quality and robust parts department far before PE or anyone else made that industry standard.
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:56 AM #93
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Although I'm a lawyer but I know nothing about patent law. Was just saying it WAS their idea and they felt they had a good solid patent (or else why waste $ like you said) but in the end I guess they didn't. But years ago (most of us were around then) they got hammered for trying to (forcefully) keep their ideas for themselves instead of letting people build off them and improving tech and the sport for everyone. Now they are on the same mindset and the buyers/players generally win in industries like that.
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Old 08-20-2021, 10:25 AM #94
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It wasn't their idea, they didn't invent ****.

They bought a vague patent and tried to fist the entire industry because they couldn't design and manufacture a competitive product.

**** company run by **** people that set the entire industry back. This is not new information, this is not something where they can redo the past to try and make themselves out to be anything other than trolls.
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Old 08-20-2021, 10:54 AM #95
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Although I'm a lawyer but I know nothing about patent law. Was just saying it WAS their idea and they felt they had a good solid patent (or else why waste $ like you said) but in the end I guess they didn't. But years ago (most of us were around then) they got hammered for trying to (forcefully) keep their ideas for themselves instead of letting people build off them and improving tech and the sport for everyone. Now they are on the same mindset and the buyers/players generally win in industries like that.
I'm not a lawyer but I'm an engineer that's got a few patents in my name. Whoever SP hired as a patent attorney was terrible and wrote what was an indefensible patent. I'm not going to crucify them for trying to defend it though because if they hadn't they would have had to relinquish it. The patent attorneys I've worked with have told me that if you're going to try and get a patent you need to set aside a minimum of $750k to defend it otherwise you're better off trying to go with a trade secret and hope your competitors don't figure it out.

Competition is good for us as consumers. Keep up the tweaks and improvements.
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Old 08-20-2021, 11:02 AM #96
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Although I'm a lawyer but I know nothing about patent law. Was just saying it WAS their idea and they felt they had a good solid patent (or else why waste $ like you said) but in the end I guess they didn't. But years ago (most of us were around then) they got hammered for trying to (forcefully) keep their ideas for themselves instead of letting people build off them and improving tech and the sport for everyone. Now they are on the same mindset and the buyers/players generally win in industries like that.
I'm not a lawyer but I'm an engineer that's got a few patents in my name. Whoever SP hired as a patent attorney was terrible and wrote what was an indefensible patent. I'm not going to crucify them for trying to defend it though because if they hadn't they would have had to relinquish it. The patent attorneys I've worked with have told me that if you're going to try and get a patent you need to set aside a minimum of $750k to defend it otherwise you're better off trying to go with a trade secret and hope your competitors don't figure it out.

Competition is good for us as consumers. Keep up the tweaks and improvements.
Man that's crazy. Sounds kinda like a broken system but I guess for big companies like GE etc. 750k is nothing.
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Old 08-20-2021, 11:15 AM #97
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Man that's crazy. Sounds kinda like a broken system but I guess for big companies like GE etc. 750k is nothing.
The patent system is definitely a mess. The average cost to get one after the lawyers get their cut is around $60k last I asked. It's pretty tough for the average person to get one these days. I work for a pretty big company that makes green and yellow farm equipment and that's nothing to them. They have a couple attorneys they keep on retainer that anytime we think we've got something worth filing a patent on we spend weeks working with to write the filing so we can actually defend it in court if we need to.
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Old 08-20-2021, 11:15 AM #98
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I mean, to be fair, they were unable to even prove that they actually invented said patented item and it was ruled non-defensible multiple times due to that fact that it severely impeded on the industries ability to develop new technology. Not to count they made their patent much too vague to be effective to defend.

There is a reason that they were unable to ever get an effective court ruling in their favor and they had to resort to just simply outlasting opponents bank rolls in every case they fought. All just my opinion though. If they had just focused on the development of their own tech and not wasted north of what I would guess was between $2-$4 million in the courts, they would have continued their insane dominance of the space. It was interesting how they didn't have a major interest in defending that patent heavily until the Nerve flopped and ICD, WDP, and Bob was massively cutting into their market share on stacked tubes and Dye was taking over the spool market.

We lost many good companies to that litigation and I still think AKA would be relevant to this day if it had not been for their forced closure of their doors. They were doing things in the quality and robust parts department far before PE or anyone else made that industry standard.
Nailed it.
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I'm not a lawyer but I'm an engineer that's got a few patents in my name. Whoever SP hired as a patent attorney was terrible and wrote what was an indefensible patent. I'm not going to crucify them for trying to defend it though because if they hadn't they would have had to relinquish it. The patent attorneys I've worked with have told me that if you're going to try and get a patent you need to set aside a minimum of $750k to defend it otherwise you're better off trying to go with a trade secret and hope your competitors don't figure it out.

Competition is good for us as consumers. Keep up the tweaks and improvements.
This likely explains why PE didn't patent the Gamma Core. But even if they were never going to enforce it, I bet they wish they had filed the patent.
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Old 08-20-2021, 12:36 PM #99
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Let's just look at this comment alone as a nonsensical run around a cone from you like always.

1) All spool valves from their iteration to now are widely different in how they operate. The Gamma core was a such a massive breakthrough in spool tech that it can be equivocated to comparing a Model-T (original spools like Gen-E) to a Bugatti. PE did not invent the spool, but they made an industry breaking tech advancement that was so good, everyone else imitated it to try and steal a piece of that pie because it basically made all existing tech obsolete.

2) How would you feel if you spent 3 years designing and perfect said above ground-breaking engine, only to have it just so obviously stolen and cloned? Id be willing to bet if you were in the industry and it was your hard work and money it would be a different story. Imagine that every-time you did something at the job you work, someone else immediately took a piece of your paycheck and claimed it as their own work.

You seem quick to minimize this act. I don't say this in a disrespectful way, but often throughout history the non-creative love to minimalize the work of the creative.


3) The LV1.6 price is fairly competitive and in the range of what a marker of that caliber should cost. The cost of RD, machining, parts finishing, anodizing, assembling, testing, packaging, shipping, and advertising/support staff alone on the marker is probably in the $750-800 range, then they still need to add a markup on that to make some money for their work, plus an additional markup for the retailer to make some money as well, its not so out of the question. Plus they are making substantially smaller runs of these markers than others in their line or competitors so that factors into a higher cost as well.
The fact that you just continue to ramble about the gamma core in a thread about a PL luxe just proves my point.

Your points don't detract from my understanding of product life cycle and PE's apparent inability to fathom that they cannot just create something and not immediately face their competition stealing it.

That's how business works. There are no feelings in business. Crying about it changes nothing and coming into a thread for the fans of competitor's product to **** on it is comical.

If Jack Woods is so worried about it, take them to court, or in PE fashion, just release an LV1.7 or CS2 Superpro.

Lastly, your generalization of my opinions and posts at the start of your response is nothing more than an attempt to discredit me because you cannot do so with your actual arguement that again, means nothing as PE has done nothing to protect their IP and the Luxe is in the hands of thousands of customers with a copied core.
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Old 08-21-2021, 12:01 AM #100
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The distance front to back and more importantly top to bottom of the inside of the trigger guard area, i.e. People are getting 15 to 20 by walking the trigger just like an electronic but with some wrist twist. At the last ICPL there was a meeting after a few guys were doing it but no resolution.

Maybe someone like Noa has both frames and can show what I mean.
Iíve got a nice collection of mech frames. Which ones do you want me to compare/test?
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Old 08-23-2021, 07:08 AM #101
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The distance front to back and more importantly top to bottom of the inside of the trigger guard area, i.e. People are getting 15 to 20 by walking the trigger just like an electronic but with some wrist twist. At the last ICPL there was a meeting after a few guys were doing it but no resolution.

Maybe someone like Noa has both frames and can show what I mean.
I’ve got a nice collection of mech frames. Which ones do you want me to compare/test?
The trigger area opening of modern mechs. An Enmy was small and now they are all huge. A couple overhead shots with a measure tape or caliper would be great.
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Old 08-23-2021, 11:05 AM #102
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The trigger area opening of modern mechs. An Enmy was small and now they are all huge. A couple overhead shots with a measure tape or caliper would be great.
What point are you trying to make with this? Why would I not want my opening to be as close to the regulated height at possible?
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Old 08-23-2021, 08:33 PM #103
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What point are you trying to make with this? Why would I not want my opening to be as close to the regulated height at possible?
I think his point is possibly that the regulated height should be made smaller in the future.
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Old 08-24-2021, 03:50 AM #104
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I haven’t done the comparison yet but just from memory I think I can safely say that the size of trigger guards vary in height. The Emek has the tallest height easily, followed by the M170r. The trigger guards on the enmey, amp, cvo, Adrenaline cvo, Adrenaline TM40 mech frame, all have a short height. I can kinda of walk the trigger on my Emek, but definitely can’t do that on anything else- especially the SP, GOG, and DLX mech frames.

I don’t have the CS2Mech frame anymore, so can’t measure that one.

Any composite material frame, you can easily sand the guard down on the inside to create more room. Just saying
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Old 08-24-2021, 12:59 PM #105
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I think his point is possibly that the regulated height should be made smaller in the future.
I agree 100%, the speed war is getting silly
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