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Old 11-03-2019, 01:03 AM #64
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What are the settings on the CTRL hopper? I took a screen shot and don’t really understand what those settings are for.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:01 AM #65
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This loader without the angle led feature would be interesting.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:38 AM #66
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Originally Posted by Shufflefield View Post

And on that note - and this isn't a slam on virtue/BNKR - Why are speed feeds not STOCK on every hopper these days? Who, even rec players, uses a lid if it's not raining? I know this stuff is the price leader stuff, the paintball equivalent of the candy in the grocery store check out line, but Speed feeds aren't really "special candy and last minute batteries" anymore, they are kind of necessary. It's like selling a marker with an intentionally crappy barrel which also doesn't happen anymore.

It's a rough balance. On one hand I get it. There isn't enough people buying this kind of stuff to really justify lower prices. But at the same time, for those of us that are in, we could use a break. Lower price may or may not "grow the sport" though. Who knows. I don't want to be too negative, but damn I am feeling the pinch.
The intro crowd fund sale is for people who are looking for a good deal so people in this forum who are "living" Paintball can get a good deal. The benefit is that it provides some early adopter advertising in a critical window when people judge an product to be a "success".

But it's not a sustainable pricing model across the board based on the size of the market and the actual costs and development involved.

This isn't a knock on anyone wanting everything to cost $99 and/or have the upgrades too... But there is a market for speed feeds and ramps we need to charge for it because the costs are real, higher than people think an the volumes are lower than than most think.

For everyone that lives on these forums etc, again there's a stretch goal to get the ramps for free 🙂

So we are definitely trying to balance the long term sustainable need to be profitable will giving the fans a good deal.

Regarding grow the sport... Virtue has an all the time low price loader option. Additionally, anyone following us knows we do a lot of price incentives on various colors at various times. It would be nice if it's low price high volume all the time but the majority of businesses and product lines just can't do that. But if we want to use the "grow" sport analogy, you can't grow a nice garden with grass seed alone. Trees are important which take more resources.You need the high end too in the industry because it gives the lower price levels something to reach for and most importantly pay R&D and the other activities.

Finally the speed feed is somewhat similar to the above responses, but the main reason why we don't give them away in the cost is we'd end up charging more and the initial cost would be higher. I'd think of it like a car with all the bells and whistles and the higher sticker price. I wouldn't assume that if we include various upgrades that cost money that the price just would stay the same outside of the occasional promotion already discussed. Our speedfeeds aren't cheap to produce. If we included them they'd be one of the highest mfg cost components on the loader.

Might not be the best answers in some respect, but it definitely describes the situation as well as I can.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:27 AM #67
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That's gonna bes a hards no from me Wayne.

You want to charge extra for a speed feed, not a fan, but I can accept that.

Want to charge extra for spring ramps to make the loader function correctly, garbage.

A level indicator? Gimmick. It's not going to make you better and I'd argue it's not going to do squat. Different guns have different shot trajectories and shooting at 280 vs 300 vs 320 (not that anyone does that) makes a huge difference.

But the biggest elephant in the room...that crazy *** price! 😂😂😂😂

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Old 11-03-2019, 06:51 AM #68
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@ChristianW - Saul Goodman. Pardon my drunken ramblings. I think I am just jealous that all my money is tied up in an upcoming trip and there is now way I can spring for it on the kickstarter. =)
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:42 AM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReDzY View Post
Speedfeed and Ramps should, without question, be standard on $200+ loaders. Nonsense that it isn't...
Absolutely. Took it from "I like my Spire, so maybe." To "Hard Pass"
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:00 AM #70
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Cool features, really glad to see another balanced hopper option out there. The angle training feature is a nice innovation (if it works).

The price to go full featured retail seems high. Virtue's pricing schemes have never made sense to me but they seem to get along fine without my business =P
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:31 AM #71
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How long is the initial deal live? Iím on the fence but if Iím going to do it I want to do it at the intro price.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:58 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReDzY View Post
Speedfeed and Ramps should, without question, be standard on $200+ loaders. Nonsense that it isn't...
Exactly!!!

The TFX 2 comes with everything that you could possibly want already in it for no extra costs.

Ramp: included

Speedfeed: included

Rain lid: included

Rechargeable battery: included

In order to make any Spire or this new CTRL have the same features you will be spending way more $$.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:29 PM #73
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Exactly!!!

The TFX 2 comes with everything that you could possibly want already in it for no extra costs.

Ramp: included

Speedfeed: included

Rain lid: included

Rechargeable battery: included

In order to make any Spire or this new CTRL have the same features you will be spending way more $$.
So don't buy it! You sound like a spoiled 12 Y/O
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:03 PM #74
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I’m just providing feedback for Virtue/Bunkerkings.

It’s overpriced for what you get when compared with other Loaders already on the market.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:06 PM #75
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From what I've seen... Some cvos just break paint. It might be because some have lots of blowback? The Adrenalin guys won an event with Spire IIIs and Cvos, Infamous just took 2nd if I'm not wrong, but they use the eclipse mechs.

I've seen Rotors break paint too with a cvo for what it's worth. Your call if the antijam performance benefit of the Spire III is worth it vs not pushing hard constantly on the paint (which of necessity increases the potential for a locking up in a jam).

The Spire III and the Ctrl both have the captured way which is both larger and partially covered to keep paint from shifting out both those design features do increase the peak rof and consistency of a high rof, especially compared to the IR/Spire200.

The CTRL uses a different logic, which is more responsive -- feeding activated after the first shot via accelerometer and doesn't stop feeding until after the stack as sufficient back pressure.

From what I've seen, if a mech gun has a breaking paint problem that's loader induced it's often when shooting your loader nearly dry, which usually won't matter to much what loader you use since the last few balls are more likely to feed slower.

The mech world definitely opens up all kinds of cans of worms we closed years ago with guns also being harsher on brittle paint etc. I was out half the game against Farside at the recent ICPL fixing the pump arm that rattled lose on my Cocker. Hah. Good times.
To my knowledge all the adrenaline guys are using mid rises. Not something that I really want to do. The last couple of years I used Nobletts old aftershock autococker and it has a smoke stack on it. Great shooting gun, just really tall.

From what I understand the issue with the virtue loaders and CVOs isn't entirely due to brittle paint. Its one thing to have a break, but something else entirely to chop. I don't know if the chopping issue is due to a short stack at the beginning of shooting a stream coupled with a non force fed loader or something else. All I know is that the chief complaint of a virtue loader and a CVO is that you will chop if you shoot a long fast stream.

This isn't a knock on virtue or BK products. My CMD is the best set of goggles I have ever owned. My BK elbow pads are amazing as is my Joy headwrap. If I played the Xball format I wouldn't hesitate to buy this. I don't so I just want to be sure that I am buying a product that will work for what I need it for before I shell out the money.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:23 PM #76
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Does balancing the weight of the paint perfectly over the center of the gun even matter? Arguably a more back heavy setup is ideal, since that makes it easier to quickly change where the gun is pointing. Unless that blocks your field of vision too much. I guess it could be a personal preference thing.
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:30 PM #77
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The R&D involved in making the angle indicator work reliably could have easily been justified in some kind of a software + smart upgrade component suite.

It's super ****ty, though, that this doesn't come with the quintessential bits (at least that it doesn't have a stretch goal that includes both of them) which are the speed feed and the dual spring ramp.

At the least, by the time you hit $200, those two pieces are far more impactful to buyers than the training tools.

I know that software is easier to produce and sell since there's no MOQ on code

But the smart feature suite I think is a great way to rope people and teams into paying those outrageous prices. Very few, if any regular folk are going to take that feature as a valid justification for having to pay more for a loader that looks ugly (that 2 tone is bad even in 2002 need for speed/F&F perspective). The fact that it looks that bad and the logic is just "yeah well then they'll buy the top half to complete it" is incredibly 2014-2019 EA if you guys and it's just in poor taste with very small margins to be made. Just offer full shell kits for $50 and don't offer some of the colors in the presale - or have an actually balanced pricing structure which makes logical sense. The colored loaders being cheaper than the solid black just doesn't make much sense.

The colored loaders, though, if available, should be complete and just charge the extra $10 and call it a day.

Just the sheer unfinished-ness of that move is so corny.

imagine, it tracks your telemetry and then you can upload it via bt to a device which then plays back the angle which your hopper was at throughout the game and you can compare that to the game timer or footage from that day to see how you could streamline your movement, etc. It adds a huge boost to teams to be able to scientifically analyze their actions to improve them. People with money burning a hole in their pocket and professionals and their teams will happily shell out the extra $60-100 for the suite of gadgets and whatnot

But you really shoot yourself in the foot if you think making this the most expensive lego set in paintball is going to make you competitive in sales volume to literally any other option on the market.

/notreallybutkindasortarant
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:40 PM #78
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tl;dr: it's not that this should be cheap. It's a quality piece.

It's that everything in terms of how this presale (not a kickstarter - for those who don't know the difference, please look that up) is being packaged and marketed is done really, really.... idk... almost bordering on shady?

And unnecessarily so. It literally looks like a cash grab, which is a shame because BK is really ****ing good at R&Ding their products.

The CMDs are fantastic.
Am I disappointed in the awful color choices? yeah
do I really care all that much? not really. It was fair that all black was released afterwards to maintain the sales figures so they didn't just drop off right after the kickstarter was over with.


This is just deliberately confusing. Which sucks, because I almost bought 12 tonight until i double took on what's included compared to the marketing material on the presale page.
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Old 11-04-2019, 03:59 AM #79
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A question for Christian, the 1500 backer stretch goal is a rebate for the spring ramp kit when it comes available, will we have to pay shipping separately on that, or will it be shipped for free? Shipping to Australia can be somewhat significant.
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Old 11-04-2019, 05:42 AM #80
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So don't buy it! You sound like a spoiled 12 Y/O
Sounds more like an adult who has to spend their own money on things to me. So your response was a little unnecessary.

I stand by my opinion that speedfeeds should be bog standard on any hopper except the lowest of the low prices these days.

Rechargeable battery seems right in the add on category sub 200ish.

Ramps... Well if they are part of the selling point they should be on there.

Again - I get the balance between staying in business and keeping customers happy. I don't think anyone is asking for free, just more reasonable.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:58 AM #81
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Guess you'll just have to wait and see what other awesome stuff we have in the works ;-)
I knew it!!
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:28 AM #82
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Is there anyway to mix/match the colors when buying 3, or do they all have to be the same color to get the additional price drop?
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:51 AM #83
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Originally Posted by laysomepaint View Post
Does balancing the weight of the paint perfectly over the center of the gun even matter?
To some degree it is preference, but for my wants/needs a balanced hopper lends to a less back heavy marker which points better to me and feels better when shooting with my off hand. I think the P̶i̶n̶o̶k̶i̶o̶ HK Speed is the only other balanced option on the market right now.
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:11 AM #84
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To some degree it is preference, but for my wants/needs a balanced hopper lends to a less back heavy marker which points better to me and feels better when shooting with my off hand. I think the P̶i̶n̶o̶k̶i̶o̶ HK Speed is the only other balanced option on the market right now.
Balanced markers are a stupid myth. The closer the weight of an object is to its point of connection, the better stability it has. Why wouldn't you want the majority of the weight closer to your shoulder and arm that is stabilizing the weight?
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