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Old 05-19-2002, 12:30 AM #1
SonGoten
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Talking Pic of modified horse shoe

here is a pic of a c-n-ced and then modified horse shoe from Big Kahuna.....
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:26 AM #2
me262
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um, why did that need to be done on a cnc? 20 minutes on a lathe and manual could do it (ive made a few just like it) and through testing, the stock one flows just as much. tou do it right you need to curve the slots along the outer edge, while opening them more. and smoothing the entrance and exit points for less turbulance.
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Old 05-19-2002, 03:45 AM #3
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because 20 mins is to long. when you cnc you can make alot of them faster.
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Old 05-19-2002, 05:47 AM #4
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well if your gonna cookie cutter them out with a cnc, might as well curve the slots along the outside of the part, all that looks like is one out of an ardvarrk with the holes connected, wich doesnt do any different then it does without the slots.
the ardvarrk bolts more efficency comes from the extra space used in the pnumatic ram section of the system being taken up by moving the o-rings further out, hence less gas is used in the cycling of the bolt, as well as other factors, i need to stare at one a little longer.
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if i speak at one constant volume, one constant pitch, one constant rhythm, right in to your ear, you STILL wont hear. (faith no more)
LONG LIVE THE SERVOS!!........
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Old 05-20-2002, 03:48 PM #5
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Go to town buddy!
I have tried all kinds of thing to make this gun shoot better,I have been playing with a matrix for about a year now. Also the reason for cnc is it takes 9 mins to cut it..That way i can make and sell them in large quanties..
I have tried and machined alot of bolts trying to do different things.. testing the over a crono and shooting paint.
I come in pbnation al the time to see what people have to say. Yes I think that it was pretty kool of you do help out snapper with his gun,,I even told people about your place cause you seem to have a really good price on anodizing, but i have never seen you say anything negative to anyone before..Untill my post.. so wassup ? You think im just a young kid who plays paintball? I have been playing sine 1985. All over the state of hawaii people know how i am about doing stuff to guns,, i find your post very insulting.. so if this is the kinds you want to promote thru your own place of buisness.. thats kool with me. I fugure all people who do airsmithing ,machine work, and just creating and expermenting in the sport of paint ball is great.. we need more people to make the sport go fowards,,not backwards..
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:15 PM #6
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How is he insulting you? Hes just giving you some pointers and telling about his experiance with the same thing.

If anything its helping you more than hurting. Don't take everything so seriously.
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:35 PM #7
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more efficiency =back wall
faster bolt = smaller beer can passages
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:58 PM #8
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hmm, you did take it wrong. i was just saying, i tried it like that and had better luck by curving the slots along with the countour of the edge, and by adding a second smaller slot further in. it was telling you a better place to look for better flow. as i dont have the time to make them, if you want i even have the cad in mastercam 8 that would give you the program to cut them on your cnc (assuming you use mastercam)
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:52 AM #9
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no problem!!
I wish i had a cnc to play with,, lol when i had a small mill all i used to do was mill autococker bodies..day off..mill bodies,haha
sorry i got upset , im tired of people saying how things dont work when they havent made the time a effort to make and do things..im sure you know what im talking about,,
2 people are suppose to be talking to you about sending their matrices to you to get annod.. hope they do..
darin
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:01 AM #10
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i definetly know what you mean

i have a tendancy (i really cant spell ) to take things wrong as well
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Old 05-21-2002, 12:42 PM #11
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Hello everyone,

Please try this, whome ever has the right equipment(me262). These are some of the things I had come up with before quite simply be laughed off the boards. Linking up the dead chamber to the live chamber, via macro line. Benefits, I was able to shoot my tank bone dry (ie gun would shoot with only 200psi in tank) other than that, personally I think it looks cool. Then I started thinking, I duplicated the live chamber air passages in the dead chamber (cutting the recharge time in half) thats just simple math. I found that it seemed to be more consistent over the chrono, before the game as well as ramdom chronos in the middle of a string.

These have been my findings take them for what they're worth.
Peace out
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Old 05-21-2002, 03:13 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGG
more efficiency =back wall
faster bolt = smaller beer can passages
So most of the efficiency was gained by putting the newer back wall in?
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Old 05-21-2002, 04:10 PM #13
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yo biggy!!
its darin from hilo,
You forgot the most important thing,you need to drill the body like the live side to do that mod,,,lol you know me,, i took your cousins gun apart to see how it was done.. this spacer mod does the same thing,but its just a lot easier to do,,no machine shop or drilling, and of course the most important thing in u can use volumizers, or a LED...hahaa
give me a call.. tried to call you a couple of times but no ones home,
thanks and aloha
darin
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:31 PM #14
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Quote:
So most of the efficiency was gained by putting the newer back wall in?
Uh-Huh there are a few other changes as well but the back wall
is the most important.
the other change is that the small tophat o-ring location is moved
forward a bit.
22% comes from this the other 11% comes from the faster bolt
leaving some pressure in the dump chamber for the next shot
(say's astroglide over at Aardy's site)
Is it just me or does that suggest that making the dump chamber
smaller would also help efficiency.



Anyone with both an original stock bolt and an Aardy bolt can
put the pieces side by side and clearly see the changes.


P.S. yes I am aware that i've contradicted myself a bit on the
bolt speed/efficiency thing but I forgive myself

Last edited by SIGG : 05-21-2002 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 05-21-2002, 07:48 PM #15
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OK, lets try to figure out why the matrix is so inefficient, and what could be done to improve it. Who knows, maybe we could come up with something that would improve upon its efficiency.

The bolt could be made to slide more freely, so that it would take less pressure to cock it. What could be done to help this?

I think a lighter main bolt would help. Maybe one made out of some sort of light yet strong plastic could help. I don't know if delrin would work seeing as how the lube might make it swell, but a ligther bolt means even less kick, and less pressure being used since you aren't moving as much mass.

Apparently changing the half moon allows the gun to hold more air which helps. How much of the half moon needs to be there? What prevents the use of just a large ring, why does the center need to be there? Or why does the half moon need to be there, why not just use a longer sleeve. If some of the center of the half moon needs to be there, why not just connect the slots the biggie cut in the space. With the old bolt kit I have, it is still a half moon, unlike aardvarks newer bolt kit. Anyway, could fear factory or biggie explain why this helps? What is purpose of the spacer/half moon? I can't seem to figure out what it is exactly that it does.

SIGG, what about the back wall effects the efficiency? Does the volume of the back chamber affect it, or the volume in the chamber in front of it? If you need more volume on either side, you could always shave some of the aluminum off the back wall to make it thinner, or make it out of a stronger material so that you could make it thinner, even if it adds some weight to the part.

Also, if the volume behind the back wall matters, why not make a thinner back plug, I know it would need to be of a stronger material if you did this.

Somebody mentioned the o-rings placement on the top hat and also the size of the beer can. How do these affect the bolt?

I am sure with all of the people on this board, we could come up with several things that would increase the efficiency if we analyze the design.

Last edited by jkeyser14 : 05-21-2002 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 05-21-2002, 07:55 PM #16
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you guys are overlooking something that is pretty noticable! Just look @ the two bolt kits - you'll see it!
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:02 PM #17
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Also

I see that the half moons on the stock bolt and bolt kit back walls are different sizes. What is the point of having the half moons on the back wall? They don't touch a single when they are in the gun since you are supposed to unscrew the back plug out either a 1/4 with the bolt kit, or flus with the stock bolt.

Also, looking at the bolt kit and stock bolt pictures (I don't have the stock bolt, I have an aardvark matrix so it came with the bolt kit), the stock beer can has larger slots milled in it, and aardvark's top hat looks a bit thinner. Could the top had be made out of a harder material and made even thinner to hold more air?
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:05 PM #18
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look @ the bolts - you'll see it!!!
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:19 PM #19
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Matrix, why don't you enlighten us?
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:19 PM #20
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I assume Matrix that you are refering to the venturi hole's instead
of 3 slots as well as the larger stem diameter.

I suspect that the holes rather than slots is to make the bolt stronger, there is a lot more material left .
the larger stem means a larger valve therefore a quicker sharper
air dump/release.

then there is the bump on the stem (still there on the red kits ?mine is blue )
the bump allows more pressure to build up before the bolt moves
to again give the air release more snap
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:38 PM #21
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How a matrix works 101

there are two air chambers in a matrix the dump chamber and the supply chamber

the dump chamber is formed by the top hat ,sleeve ,stop,and back wall

the supply chamber is formed by the back wall and plug.

there are two valves, one formed by the top hat (small o-ring)
and the bolt stem.
the other is the back of the bolt stem and the back wall

when the bolt is back, the top hat valve is closed, stopping air
from going down the barrel.
the back wall valve is open ,allowing air from the supply chamber
to flow into and fill the dump chamber.

when you fire the gun, the bolt moves to the forward position,
when its almost to the front, the second small o-ring on the stem
closes the hole (valve) in the back wall, shutting of the supply chamber.
when the bolt hits the front the top hat valve opens (bolt stem
clears the small top hat o-ring) and lets air down the barrel and
takes a ball with it.

on the stock bolt the back wall is to thin and there is a time when
both valves are open. this is how the gas is wasted the two
valves should not be open at the same time.
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