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Old 02-10-2005, 12:22 PM #1
Kirk@WM
 
 
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We're listening...........

We are currently working on some new things here at War Machine. I would like to get some feedback from you guys. I'm interested in what you guys think are the best qualities of some of your favorite markers. Obviously the thing has to shoot straight, shoot fast, not chop, and be reliable. What I want to know are the little things like, my monkey blaster 2000 feels great because it is so balanced.......My auto-whacking paint zinger is cool 'cause it has a 15 degree regulator.......The shockazooloo is awesome because it's so small........you get the point. I'm just trying to fill in any blanks that we may overlook, happy posting, thanks to all who give their two cents!

-Kirk
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Old 02-10-2005, 02:14 PM #2
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definitely make different color choices. and make a gun that has a really nice trigger, like 4 way adjustable.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:06 PM #3
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Also, if you guys agree with something that is already posted, make a note of it. thanks. What colors do you guys want? Try to be specific. How about black,blue and silver dusted finish? We can do that.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:18 PM #4
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you know; somehting like the dreadnoght

i dont really care about weight but size, speed and consistancy are important.

somehting that wont break easily
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:21 PM #5
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Upgradeability and ergonomics. If the Assault took more standard parts that would make many people happy, who cares if the stock parts are good they want to be able to put the latest whiz bang LPR and HPR on there. Use a standard ASA for the HPR, and a common (bm2k?matrix?) LPR threading.

Then ergonomics and layout. For example, my friend and I both agree this feels much more natural than it was stock:

http://home.comcast.net/~amcfall/***...f/assault2.JPG

You can hold the reg well without things getting in the way (one reason I love the sidewinder is the swiveling bottom ait input). The grip is more comfy, and that durn front block is gone (making an air assist 3 way that goes in the back instead of the front block). There's more room in the trigger guard, and it just "fits" better. Ergonomics can be hard to quantify,but is my biggest gripe about the assault. The more I work on this one the less likely I am to give it back, I'm really falling for it :-)

Of course colors and stuff appeal to many people, just not me. You could make nothing but dust black and I'd be happy.

BTW, you find any more stuff to sell me? :-)

Avery McFall
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:39 PM #6
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Avery, gimme a call, that's killer! We're headed that direction.
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:48 PM #7
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Thanks Kirk, glad you like it. I'll give you a ring at the shop tomorrow. I was wondering if this was similar to some of your top secret projects :-)

Avery
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:51 PM #8
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close......
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:12 PM #9
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ooo Effiency, what ever it is it needs to be effient.
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:30 PM #10
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yeah, silver black and blue would be good, but also green and red are pretty popular
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:35 PM #11
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All I ask for is another eye-catching gun. You and I of all people here, Kirk, know the looks the 80 gets out at the field or where ever.

Stuff:
Efficient
Colors - Black/Red/Blue/Silver-Clear/Purple
Universal Compatablilty (able to use with other parts of other guns)
Weirdness/Coolness Look factor

I also think it would be cool to see if you could somehow make a back-block for it Alex and I looked into it before and it's fesable...that would just be cool

Oh ya, I'll be in the shop sometime this week to pick up a new feedneck, an OD chip, and possibly a the new supercharger - depends on cash tho.
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Old 02-11-2005, 08:17 AM #12
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Price is a good start too. Now with the release of the Smart Parts ION for $300 US the whole industry is going to be turned on its ear.

Efficiency is also a plus so people can start using 45/4500 to reduce weight. A quick removalve breech would rock so you could squeegee out a ball break on the field.

Reliablity, I have seen waayy to many high end guns have too many problems balancing HPR/LPR and other mechanical issues.

And of coarse the Sexy thing, the A-80 didn't sell for me because it just looked plain ugly. It was too tall and weird looking, make it smaller and sexier!

Shaun
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Old 02-11-2005, 11:07 AM #13
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We are going to eliminate the LPR all together. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I'm sure it will be recognizable. Sorry Polish, no back block. Why would you want something that moves on the outside of the marker? Let's not mention the "you know what" released by "you know who". You make a good point Ostwar, but we're not scared.
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Old 02-11-2005, 05:23 PM #14
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I guess you'll be using the new Humbphreys 225psi-rates solenoid?

For a tournament marker (please note that for scenario/big game this list might very well be very different).
First the obvious list:
- Electronic with break beam eyes. I think you pretty much gesses this from the about to be launched markers from ICD and that-who-shall-remain-nameless.
- bps>18bps. Anything over that won't be that important, but it sure adds to the next point.
- Reactive (what some call fast). It's very important to have the lowest latency from the trigger pull to the moment the ball leaves the barrel. Human reflexes aren't that good to have to add those of the marker.
- Efficent (at least 1600 shots out of a 68/4500). Not all fields reach 4500, so you basically have 1000 shots out of a 68/3000. This is the bare minimum to be on the safe side of a match gone wrong. I usually think that if you shoot over 600, ever, you're doing something very wrong. But not everybody abides to my theory.
- Accurate and consistent. Without consistency, I won't be able to put balls excactly where I want. I know that it's very important the quality of balls you're using, as well as the barrel and match. But given those factors are covered, I want it to shoot straight. I've noticed a trade off between sensitivity to paint, barrel and match and maximum accuracy. For example, my LP A5 would cherrie tomatoes relatively straight. But with fresh Mid Evil and a Boomstick it can't equal a Viking (the most accurate market I have cpmpletely tested, yet). Given this limitation, I would go with the price range. If it's a high end marker, then I want it to shoot very straight even if it only shoots Ultra Evil with a Titanium Boomstick. On the other hand, if it's a middle pricedmarker, it has to shoot above average with $40 a case paint. If it's an entry level, it has to shoot average on $29.99 a case paint.
- Dependable. The benchmark here is the Tippmmann M98. No problem, no adjustments, always works. I've got a friend who haven't even cleaned his for 5 years! I know that much is impossible for an electropneumatic. But something like the AKA's guns are good. Set up once keep batteries fressh and drop some oil once in a while, and you are all set. The Assault 80 had it mostly right, save for the little microline in the turbocharged version. I've had my share of problems with that.
- Good barrel and option to no barrel. I want a Lapco or Ultralite quality barrel. But since you'll most probably upgrade anyways, better it be an option to no barrel at all.
- Standard. Cocker barrel, Angel or Bushmaster Feedneck, Autococker or Matrix ball detents, Freestyle or Matrix LPR, ASA for HPR, Intimidator triggers, 9.6V battery compatible, easy to get by o-rings and .45 compatible grips.
- Optional or better yet stock: no-rise and adjustable on/off.
- Not too heavy. I have a Freestyle the lightest gun I have, but after adding the on/off, tank, barrel, hopper and balls, it's not that much lighter than my Osiris or Excalibur (the heaviest I have).
- Reasonable battery life, say 14,000 shots. Or at least the most you can shoot in a tournament weekend of X-Ball.
- Insignificant kick. You naturaly tremble with the adrenaline, tire, and the movement of your hand when pulling the trigger. The less the marker kicks when shooting the more you can concentrate on correcting the others. The Assault 80 is very goot here. My benchmarks would be a Fresstyle or a DM5. The FS has less mass and this kicks a little more than the DM5, but that is a different tradeoff.
- Low Noise. If you are very careful to use dark paint (hence the break beam) and your marker has insignificant sound, then it will be very difficult for your opponent to know from where are you shooting him. At least on some situations.
- The balance. If you have a correct technique (at least as taught by the Russian Legion) the center of mass should be over your hand, but the center of lateral rotation a little behind. This always with an Ultralight and a screw in 68/4500 stubby, Halo and 100 balls.
The other important thing is to minimize the momentum when turning (i.e. leaving as little weight as possible in the fore and aft). But weight in the center is good since it helps changing hands.
A No-Rise and compact on/off are de rigueur here to minimize the attitude momentum.
- Changing hands: this is something that not always is considered, but leaving little space in the trigger guard or making too small the part after the grip, difficults this part. In particular, the two predominant techniques are either move first the shooting hand while holding the gun from the HPR, or moving the HPR hand while holding the trigger. In the latter, you keep holding the gun with the part of your hand between your index finger and thumb (I don't know the English for that). This part has to be very confortable to hold and to slide your fingers through.
- Trigger, I personally like roller bearing trigger, with the turning axis well behind and a convex curve towards the grip. I like that curvatur since it compensates the travel of the lower finger when pulling the trigger. Since you usually pull not only towards you, but also a little "up", the curve reduces the distance travelled and make the upper and lower fingers better.
- Easy battery change.
- Easy maintenance. AKA is the benchmark. Just three dops of 100% synthetic oil each case, never do anything else, ever. But you are almost there. The only difference is the relative difficulty in assempling your markers.
- Some easy way to program the board. And some alert to low battery conditions.
- Fast boot times.
- An on/off switch to the boards.
- Black and Black to [Pewter/Gray/Blue] color options.
- LCD and thumb wheel like the iPod for programming :-) (just joking)

Is this the kind of help that you need?

Last edited by baldusi : 02-11-2005 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 02-12-2005, 11:08 PM #15
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Old 02-14-2005, 08:30 AM #16
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Definatly dont det rid of WM's uniquness. Some may thnk it is ugly, but that is one of the reasons i want to buy one
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Old 02-14-2005, 12:56 PM #17
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Thanks baldusi. Humbpherys has a new solenoid? Ha, yeah, I really keep up with current events.
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Old 02-14-2005, 03:20 PM #18
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I figured I'd take Baldusis excelent list and rank it as per my wishes.
Unless I comment diffrent I agree largely with Baldusi.

Most important comes first:

- Consistensy
- Ergonomics
- The balance
- Trigger
- Slim [A80 is a good size but smaler is better]
- BPS>18bps
- Break beam eyes [bounce eyes suck IMHO]
- Low latency trigger [See below]
- Board settings [See below]
- Fast boot times [see below]
- Dependable
- Dust/mate black (powder coat) [It's the only 'color' I want]
- Standardized parts
- No barrel
- No Reg
- No LPR
- No Trigger
[If the parts are standard and easy to get ahold of and mount I'd rather buy what I want from right of the bat]
[Feel free to offer a "ready to go" version to, but I'd rather get a sugestion along with the marker]
- Easy maintenance [low maintaints is better than easy however]
- Insignificant kick

As for board, I'd sugest looking into the TAG sports boards, not sure I like the company as such, but the board has minimal latency, is upgradeable and has a good suport deal.

Weight and size, personaly I'd rather have a 5kg (~10 punds) marker the size of my fist than on the size of a bucket with no weight.
Weight adds stability, and if the marker is balanced it whon't cause you grief.
Short and stubby is better than long and sleak, unless the barrel is mounted far back like on the "Alien A1 Revalation".
Balance is more important than both weight and size.

On ergonomics all I want said is that a 1911 Colt .45 was designed around 1910 and fires .45 ACP rounds from a straight arms posture, way infront of you.

I think that's about it.
//dEATh
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Old 02-14-2005, 03:38 PM #19
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Nice to see all my "old buddies" posting. What do you mean by, no barrel, no reg, and no trigger? It'll have a reg, and probably a barrel. As for the trigger, it will be a War Machine trigger, I am however pushing very hard for the best trigger we can come up with. So far I'm hoping for three way adjustable (forward,backward, and swith depth) roller bearing trigger with more than one style. Correct me if I'm wrong but the E-blade for cockers is a roller bearing right?

Last edited by Kirk@WM : 02-14-2005 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 02-14-2005, 07:44 PM #20
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i play front and b/c so all of the high end markers shoot faster then my fingers can even think about moving, i do not really care about speed. i can hit about 15, and thats good enough for me. so here is wat i look for:

lightness- I am getting a alias for this. its just under a pound and a half

eficiancy- i want sumthin that gets alot of shots a tank. i dont like to worry about refilling crap

no chopping- combination of eyes, low pressure operation, and what ever else helps with that. i want to be able to hit my target here.

recoil- none of it. wen i see my target and let loose and possibly miss my first shot, i dont want recoil to effect how fast i get back on target and make that game-winning shot

compact- i want this thing in the smallest package possible so i get get as small as i can

Accurate- again, i want to be able to make that game winning shot.

Well balanced- i want it to feel really good, and be comfortable with it

Durable- i sure as hell dont want this to break in the middle of a big tourny

Easily maintained- i want to be able to fix this without a rocket scientist if something DOES go wrong

thats pretty much all i can think of right now thats really important to me.
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Old 02-14-2005, 07:50 PM #21
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I don't think the E-Blade trigger has a bearing in it - it's just magnetic. Best example to use for a roller trigger is the CP Roller. It's hella popular and around $30. Everybody I know loves it.

As for size - I'd relate it to the Dreadnaught/Shocker body Oh and Kirk - you need to shoot Atkin's Nasty Shocker...ohhhh the power. Or any of the XSF shockers.
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