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Old 10-20-2013, 11:35 PM #1
aresfiend
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Call me crazy but I wanna make something neat...

Yep. Really weird idea, right? Make something that's NEAT?!

But in all seriousness, I want to make... some... system. I really don't know what to call it, so I'll use my expertise with MS paint to explain it.



Basically, it works like a poppet, but instead of a ram striking the poppet which opens the valve the ram IS the poppet, and instead of it letting all the air in at once it would let a little bit of air in through small holes in the frontmost and overall very short part of the stroke then vent through larger holes allowing the rest of the air used to fire it immediately after, at which point the ram would just return, sealing it back up.

Does anybody else follow? I feel like the smaller opening at the front leading to the full blast of the second bit would make for a quieter (or at least have less of a crack than a standard poppet) shot, but I'm not an engineer and I know some of the people that browse around here are.

If what I'm saying makes sense and it actually would be a good idea, I think it could be easily implemented in an older Ego since it would only need a new valve if it was mostly made to the same specifications in regards to the cycling portion of the ram.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:39 AM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aresfiend View Post
Yep. Really weird idea, right? Make something that's NEAT?!

But in all seriousness, I want to make... some... system. I really don't know what to call it, so I'll use my expertise with MS paint to explain it.



Basically, it works like a poppet, but instead of a ram striking the poppet which opens the valve the ram IS the poppet, and instead of it letting all the air in at once it would let a little bit of air in through small holes in the frontmost and overall very short part of the stroke then vent through larger holes allowing the rest of the air used to fire it immediately after, at which point the ram would just return, sealing it back up.

Does anybody else follow? I feel like the smaller opening at the front leading to the full blast of the second bit would make for a quieter (or at least have less of a crack than a standard poppet) shot, but I'm not an engineer and I know some of the people that browse around here are.

If what I'm saying makes sense and it actually would be a good idea, I think it could be easily implemented in an older Ego since it would only need a new valve if it was mostly made to the same specifications in regards to the cycling portion of the ram.
Interesting idea. Do you plan on trying this in an older ego if you can locate the resources to create it?
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:01 AM #3
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Interesting idea. Do you plan on trying this in an older ego if you can locate the resources to create it?
Possibly. I think that would be the easiest way to go about it, but at the same time I'd kinda like to make an entire gun around it.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:32 PM #4
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Possibly. I think that would be the easiest way to go about it, but at the same time I'd kinda like to make an entire gun around it.
Im sure I dont need to tell you this but this can become an expensive venture.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:54 PM #5
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Im sure I dont need to tell you this but this can become an expensive venture.
It really depends.

If I build around a merlin extrusion, use a cocker frame, star frame, older Ego frame, Ion frame, Shocker frame, etc. along with something like a Mac33 noid, some random VASA, any HPR (I've got a few lying around), and any ASA (ditto) I wouldn't be in too far for money. Yeah, SOME money, but not a ton of money.

EDIT: However, I will most likely end up building the ram/valve setup for an Ego7 or Ego8.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:12 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aresfiend View Post
It really depends.

If I build around a merlin extrusion, use a cocker frame, star frame, older Ego frame, Ion frame, Shocker frame, etc. along with something like a Mac33 noid, some random VASA, any HPR (I've got a few lying around), and any ASA (ditto) I wouldn't be in too far for money. Yeah, SOME money, but not a ton of money.

EDIT: However, I will most likely end up building the ram/valve setup for an Ego7 or Ego8.
I say go for it man. Worst case scenario you fail lol
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:23 PM #7
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Dangit, stole my idea...
I was working on 3D renderings of the exact design you described. You got it, though! Quite a cool design!
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:17 PM #8
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Dangit, stole my idea...
I was working on 3D renderings of the exact design you described. You got it, though! Quite a cool design!
Noah
Well do them dammit, I can't distribute designs based on MS paint

I will, however, get to work on this. I think what I'm going to do is make it a two part system. The first part would be the standard style rammer, but instead of having the standard blunt end I'm going to build it with a threaded end, and then I'm going to just take an aluminum rod, clear it out with a lathe, tap it to fit on the ram, put the crevices to hold the o-rings in, mill the air passageways, then start work on a valve.

My biggest concern that I've seen in my head is volume, since the valve will have to be longer so that it won't fire prematurely. If done right, it will take up the same amount of space that the poppet occupied before, but I'm 99% sure I'm not going to do it right.
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Last edited by aresfiend : 10-21-2013 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:05 AM #9
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Could put in an insert that pretty much makes the valve longer, therefor you won't have to worry about the extra volume in the poppet chamber?

Just an idea, I'm new to voided warranty
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:34 PM #10
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I'm not trying to upset you, i see your logic, However There's going to be quite an investment to get it off the ground.

First you gotta start with a prototype, and unfortunately I highly doubt any (but i wont say i'm certain) high-end gun maker or designer for that matter has produced a higher end marker right from the very first attempt...( in-terms of a quality, efficiency etc, does it even do what you had wanted it to do? )

With all that said, Goodluck man, if i were you i'd find a buddy that can do machine work like CNC, show him what u want, get perfect specs of the existing system and have him build a crude but operating version and then go talk to someone who can throw u the overhead $.

If you attempt this, you may also find the reason why they built it the way they did. You never know till you try.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:35 PM #11
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What you're proposing is essentially lengthening the time that air is released. This means the the ball is going to be pushed a bit further from the bolt before the bulk of the air hits it. This creates a 'dead space' behind the ball that will need to be filled with high pressure air before the ball can be pushed. This creates an air inefficiency. How much air is lost depends upon the size of that dead space. Now with careful examination you may be able to offset the con of air inefficiency with the pro of smoothness.
It may be wise to begin the flow of air before the bolt finishes its travel. Do that correctly and you may get the ball to ride forward on a cushion of air lowering the hit of the bolt on the paint.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:58 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokertm View Post
Could put in an insert that pretty much makes the valve longer, therefor you won't have to worry about the extra volume in the poppet chamber?

Just an idea, I'm new to voided warranty
The problem is that the insert would need to take up the same amount of space AND wouldn't seal correctly. The valve lengthening is so that it doesn't fire prematurely and blow air up the feedneck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrapBrap69 View Post
I'm not trying to upset you, i see your logic, However There's going to be quite an investment to get it off the ground
I want to make something neat. 90% of it can be done on a lathe. It's also not going to be something I sell. MAYBE 5, if I'm feeling like trying to do that at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpt_crunch View Post
What you're proposing is essentially lengthening the time that air is released. This means the the ball is going to be pushed a bit further from the bolt before the bulk of the air hits it. This creates a 'dead space' behind the ball that will need to be filled with high pressure air before the ball can be pushed. This creates an air inefficiency. How much air is lost depends upon the size of that dead space. Now with careful examination you may be able to offset the con of air inefficiency with the pro of smoothness.
It may be wise to begin the flow of air before the bolt finishes its travel. Do that correctly and you may get the ball to ride forward on a cushion of air lowering the hit of the bolt on the paint.
Yep. The only problem with beginning the flow before the bolt finishes it's travel is that it could blow air up the feedneck (assuming I build off an older Ego platform as I intend). I'd begin the flow JUST before it's fully open, and then it would be shut off rather quickly by the ram retreating to it's standard state.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:06 PM #13
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Originally Posted by aresfiend View Post
The problem is that the insert would need to take up the same amount of space AND wouldn't seal correctly. The valve lengthening is so that it doesn't fire prematurely and blow air up the feedneck.



I want to make something neat. 90% of it can be done on a lathe. It's also not going to be something I sell. MAYBE 5, if I'm feeling like trying to do that at all.


Yep. The only problem with beginning the flow before the bolt finishes it's travel is that it could blow air up the feedneck (assuming I build off an older Ego platform as I intend). I'd begin the flow JUST before it's fully open, and then it would be shut off rather quickly by the ram retreating to it's standard state.

I see your point.
From my limited thinking(again im new to this) since you wont have a poppit to reclose the seal, it'll be the same "ram/valve" you'll have to be pretty precise on the measurements of the length of the ram shaft and basically where the "shutoff" would be... right?

Sorry if I sound ignorant, just trying to make some sense out of this and help you out
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:06 PM #14
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I see your point.
From my limited thinking(again im new to this) since you wont have a poppit to reclose the seal, it'll be the same "ram/valve" you'll have to be pretty precise on the measurements of the length of the ram shaft and basically where the "shutoff" would be... right?
Yeah. The thing is, I'm going to use a longer valve so I don't need to be as precise. I'm assuming I could just turn the pressure up to make up for the lost volume (if it takes up more space than the poppet/spring), but the physics behind pressurized air are weird.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:48 PM #15
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maybe I'm not getting exactly what you're saying from the Ms paint drawing, and the description along with it, but isn't this very similar to the j4 torque?
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:52 PM #16
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maybe I'm not getting exactly what you're saying from the Ms paint drawing, and the description along with it, but isn't this very similar to the j4 torque?
Yes, it's similar, but the torque runs off of a lower guide if I'm not mistaken. He wants it to be a ram AND a poppet to seal te air flow.

I think it's a really good idea, if I had the cash id invest just to see the outcome


The rise in pressure means less efficiency and could lead to very bad consistency issues since the ram will also seal the air passage
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:14 PM #17
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That picture isn't doing much for me. Try drawing it in PowerPoint and include the actual valve profile and bolt interface. I don't understand what's shutting off the airflow while the system is at rest. I'm always in seeing new ideas, but there's not enough information for me.
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