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Old 03-31-2002, 10:02 PM #1
Mr_Clean
 
 
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What's better...

I'm thinking about buying a better, tournament quality marker that I can use as I try to become involved in competetive paintball.

Do you think it would suit me better to buy a stock Impulse, or a Black Dragun and get upgrades that would about bring it to the same price? Or do you think there is a better option? These are the 2 main markers I am thinking about..any input is appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2002, 10:27 PM #2
abracadabra1
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Although I urge you to keep your BD, I do agree that if you're hoping to jump into the hardcore tournament scene that you will need another marker.

I advice that you shoot a couple of markers to see which you like best. The feel of each gun is distinct and will be a decisive factor in your final choice. I feel that the impys are just too tall for my tastes, but I still like them.

Out of your two choices though, the impy would definitely be the better choice in that you have lots of avenues for upgrading that will dramatically increase in the performance of the marker. The BD has many upgrades as well, but none that will alter its performance in such a manner as those available for the imp.

My favorite tournament markers are:
AKA Viking (~$575)- Best marker and best deal by my standards
Diablo Matrix
RAT Impulse
GZ Timmy
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Old 03-31-2002, 10:42 PM #3
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Get the Matrix :)

I'd def. go with the Matrix, but that's just me... I did a lot of reading up on them and even had the chance to fire a few and they are definately on my list of 'Must Haves' if I ever stick with this sport enough to get competitive about it. Hell, I almost even picked one up, but just couldn't justify getting a tourny quality marker at my skill level ...

Don't get me wrong, not badmouthing the BD. After shooting one and learning their price, I knew right away it was the way to go. Good upgradeability, decent stock performance, and damn low price tag made this the only choice for me.... Also, I felt that if I ever did get to the point where I was playing tournys, and upgraded myself to a Matrix, then this would be a damn fine backup marker to have in case anything went wrong, and with the interchangeable fore-breech, I won't have to buy another barrel (which would REALLY suck if I go with a $200 freak kit).

On one final note: If you DO in fact get a Matrix, an almost mandatory upgrade would be to get the Aardvark bolt kit. Matrices are gas hogs, and that bolt will supposedly up your efficiency by 22-33%. Aardvark also has a LP reg. that will help out too, but the bolt is a must have, otherwise you'll be learning to appreciate the value of "all-day air" a whole lot more.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents.
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Old 04-01-2002, 01:07 AM #4
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get a stock 2k1 cocker and put a hinge trigger on it. There ya go tournament ready.
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Old 04-01-2002, 06:48 AM #5
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Hinge trigger?

Hell no! Get the new KAPP Reflex Frame if you go the cocker route. It is by far the sexiest frame I've ever seen on any gun and must shoot like a dream.

I didn't select any of the guns I named as my favorites because I think they're out of the price range he suggested (ie. saying he could purchase either a BD with upgrades or a stock imp). The cocker would definately be a great choice too.
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Old 04-01-2002, 11:03 AM #6
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matricies are nice. very nice. I've had two. a sweet *** aardvark custom matrix and a stock one with aardvark bolt kit and trinity reg (prevents chopping). b4 getting one, read up on it first. if you don't know how to set up & maintain it, it'll be a nightmare. If you do set up & maintain it properly, it'll be a dream.

you could pick up a used cocker and add any of the hinge frames. That'd be the cheapest and easiest route to go.

good luck
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Old 04-01-2002, 08:51 PM #7
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Matrix = bad idea.

Their efficancy is a big issue. As is their recharge rate. without the trinity kit they are neutered. they are marginal at best. the other guns you mentioned won't beat the dragun black.... in anything except for the fact they have eyes.

the matrix is only "cool" becuase of the 3 years of hype that lead up to it.

Now, if you can deal with seccond worst in the pack efficancy9 only AFTER the trinity kit.. AKA the original gun was fubared) , slower than your draguns top cycling rate, and an exchanable breach that you can't get new breaches for yet....

well... yea. the other guns are just different, not higher preformance than your dragun.
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Old 04-02-2002, 08:57 AM #8
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well... yea. the other guns are just different, not higher preformance than your dragun
that kind of makes me feel real good about my dragun

One of the few things that I would like changed on the Dragun is the kickback. I'd like it if it was a little smoother cycling and had less kick; but I can live with it.
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Old 04-02-2002, 09:18 AM #9
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Nerobro, what were you on when you wrote that last post???
man, that was one of the worst posts i've ever seen from you.

all that aside,
the matrix is actually very good. many of the first produced had crapy machining issues (quality control). it is true that a stock matrix doesn't have great efficiency (about that of a shocker). There is a "bolt kit" that boosts efficiency by about 30% (they advertise 33%). the trinity reg prevents (if not eliminates) chops.
True, the matrix can only cycle at about 18 bps (stock bolt) and 22 bps (with bolt kit) which is less than the max cycle rate of a BD (or any spyder clone) with the sear removed.... but that's just it, with the sear removed. you can actually PLAY with the ROF set higher on a matrix than a black dragon. I'm not knocking the BD, I'm only trying to say that the matrix isn't a bad marker. I know you're great with blow back, spyder type markers, but your knowledge of the matrix is lacking. But, then I don't expect any person to be an expert with ALL markers. Like I said, you know you stuff when it comes to spyder type markers.
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Old 04-02-2002, 12:31 PM #10
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The DRaguns will cycle at more than 40hz when the sear is removed.

As for efficancy, the efficancy was much worse than a shocker stock. And with the new kit only get marginally better than a shocker. (of course barrel choice effects this)

The bolt kit was.. and is an interesting mod. The gun is an intrigueing design, but instead of real seals around most of the gun it just uses o-rings... but thankfully they are easy to replace.

Now, there are some really neat things about the matrix, such as the fact that it could be built like a emag to work on both an electrotrigger AND a manual trigger... though that's not going to happen any time soon.

Now, I can't tell you the gun isnt' well made ;-) And especially with the stock bolt it's very gentle on paint. And from an engineering standpoint, it's an interesting gun. there are only 2 moving parts in the gun.

I"m not saying the matrix isn't usable. It's just not a gun I coudl reccomend to anyone, on any defendable standpoint.
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Old 04-02-2002, 12:47 PM #11
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whoa nero, thats some seroiusly insulting stuff : /. for starters, stock matrix efficiency is better then a shocker, and about the same as an angel with the bolt kit in. thats been extensively tested. also, the trinity has nothing to do with efficiency. all the trinity does is regulate the bolt pressure down, and it does an excelent job at that. it lowers cycling pressure to the point that the gun physicaly cannot chop a paintball. now, as for recharge issues, i'm not really sure what your talking about. if you mean the several recent complaints as to insuficient pressure supply, that was a closed, and resolved issue. a number of stock regs on the guns were defective, but the company that produces the regs, centerflag, is replacing the regs for free. the recharge rate of the gun is around 20 bps, as well. as we all know, your not gonna come anywhere near that. no offense, but the black dragun being able to cycle faster then that is pretty much worthless. the only person who can fire anywhere near that fast that i've ever heard of is dave cardoso, who can hit around 18. your also not taking into account the fact that no gravity fed loader can feed above 14 or so bps, and none above 10 for more then a second or two. lastly, the matrix breeches are available from the matrix center, as they have been for several months now. now, i'm not saying anything bad about the black dragun, as i've never even seen one, but i'm just saying there was alot of bad information about the matrix right there, and you shouldn't post something like that without real information to back it.
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Old 04-02-2002, 01:57 PM #12
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Is this a start of a Mod fight

Black draguns are great guns and so is the Matrix. All their problems have been fixed for a while. On another note the gun cycling at 40 b.p.s is starting to get old. You can't use this speed at all, and it make the marker shake so violently that it actually starts to hurt your hand. Not to mention the sound it makes, if you had to put up with it for to long you'd probably go def. Just ask anyone thats had a blow back go spastic on them, its no fun. One other thing I think every paintball gun ever made uses o-rings to seal it.
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Old 04-02-2002, 04:43 PM #13
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Morpheuz: I"ll chat back at you in a bit. You sound like someone I'd like to discuss this with, maybe even change my mind on things. (Im' not as stubborn as I look...)

Bob, the gun shakes EXACTLY the same amount for ONE shot as 40 shots a seccond. And it uses less energy than a cocker to do so.
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Old 04-02-2002, 08:56 PM #14
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sure, feel free to talk to me any time, i can tell ya anything ya need to know about the matrix. i'd love to try and change your mind about the gun aswell. its good to see someone whose not so set in their ways that they won't even listen reason
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Old 04-03-2002, 03:39 AM #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by morpheusZ
whoa nero, thats some seroiusly insulting stuff : /. for starters, stock matrix efficiency is better then a shocker, and about the same as an angel with the bolt kit in. thats been extensively tested.
Ok, I heard worse. First.. ravi's explanation on what moves the bolt is wrong, but i'm quoting his site for a moment. "Diablo claims 800 shots from a 68 ci 4500 psi air system" that's down-right rediculous. Of course that's the stock setup. From what I hear the new bolt is 30% more efficant right? So... we're still only talking 1200 rounds off of a 68/45. That's a liveable number. A mag will pull 900-1000 shots off of a 68/3k. and angels vary a lot, they are almost like a cocker in their ability to be gas mizers and gas hogs depending on what idiot set them up.
Quote:
also, the trinity has nothing to do with efficiency. all the trinity does is regulate the bolt pressure down, and it does an excelent job at that. it lowers cycling pressure to the point that the gun physicaly cannot chop a paintball.
I got my names mixed up. the trinity should improve efficancy marginally, since your'e using less air to recock the bolt ;-) but that's minscule in comparison to the air used/wasted to shoot the ball. Neat kit none the less.
Quote:
now, as for recharge issues, i'm not really sure what your talking about. if you mean the several recent complaints as to insuficient pressure supply, that was a closed, and resolved issue. a number of stock regs on the guns were defective, but the company that produces the regs, centerflag, is replacing the regs for free. the recharge rate of the gun is around 20 bps, as well. as we all know, your not gonna come anywhere near that.
I wasn't aware the matrix came with a good reg ;-) I really respect centerflag. There are some issues with recharge and residual chamber pressures in guns of this design. the lower the pressure the more pressure remains in the fireing chamber from shot to shot. (one place the gun might be loosing efficancy... but you'd need a gun dyno to be sure) Lower pressures behave badly in situations like this. If you're looking for another example that's simmilar, look at the shocker. the reason they dont' make the mag operate at a lower pressure is because of the same efficancy problems.

now that's an Idea.. a high pressure matrix.......... but i'm getting ahead of myself.
Quote:
no offense, but the black dragun being able to cycle faster then that is pretty much worthless. the only person who can fire anywhere near that fast that i've ever heard of is dave cardoso, who can hit around 18.
Well, it can cycle faster than that, and it's actually a huge benifit. the faster a gun cycles the longer the breach is open. the longer the breach is open the more time you have for paint to feed. that's one place the automag has the rest of the industry beat at, is bolt open time.

personally, if I'm clicking a mouse trigger I can top 14bps. but that would be fanning on a gun. Just, it can be done.
Quote:
your also not taking into account the fact that no gravity fed loader can feed above 14 or so bps, and none above 10 for more then a second or two.
Gravity feed is no longer an issue in the NPPL... and the new leagues as well. the warp is legal. the halo will also feed 18bps via gravity.
Quote:
lastly, the matrix breeches are available from the matrix center, as they have been for several months now. now, i'm not saying anything bad about the black dragun, as i've never even seen one, but i'm just saying there was alot of bad information about the matrix right there, and you shouldn't post something like that without real information to back it.
wow.. some breaches actualy came out? what kinds are available?

I apoogize, i didn't think i was THAT far off. Quite honestly I think the matrix is a really neat design. they pulled it off well. there's only one major moving part in the gun... and that's an impressive feat in and of itself. It reminds me of an automag that's had the spring and sear removed and replaced with a ram... which would probally be a good analogy. I would almost like to have seen then the manual trigger version... though that's a conversion to do when the matrixes get cheap to buy.

now... I wanna see a matrix based on high pressure... THAT would be a rocking gun.
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Old 04-03-2002, 03:59 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nerobro

I got my names mixed up. the trinity should improve efficancy marginally, since your'e using less air to recock the bolt ;-) but that's minscule in comparison to the air used/wasted to shoot the ball. Neat kit none the less.
i agree. the trinity is a really interesting design if you look into it. its the first pnumatic regulator designed to take the input and output from the same place. very cool. that makes it a bolt on mod, with no permanent mods required. makes ya wonder how hard it would be to make something like that with the 2 way design to go on any marker...

Quote:
Originally posted by Nerobro

I wasn't aware the matrix came with a good reg ;-) I really respect centerflag. There are some issues with recharge and residual chamber pressures in guns of this design. the lower the pressure the more pressure remains in the fireing chamber from shot to shot. (one place the gun might be loosing efficancy... but you'd need a gun dyno to be sure) Lower pressures behave badly in situations like this. If you're looking for another example that's simmilar, look at the shocker. the reason they dont' make the mag operate at a lower pressure is because of the same efficancy problems.
i'm not sure, since i don't know much about shockers, but i was under the impression that one of the things that made the shocker so slow was its closed bolt operation. as for the faster feeding with faster bolt action, thats a good point that i didn't take into account. it sort of balances out tho, when you think about it. the dragun has less of a chance of catching a ball, but if it does catch it, it will probably chop it. the matrix has a greater chance of catching a ball, but if it does, there is a lower chance it will chop it. as far as faster recharge goes, i don't think there are any problems. i'm not exactly sure how the novas worked, but i think the matrix is designed somewhat better. again, it can cycle around 20 times per second without a great deal of difficulty. being low pressure doesn't effect it all that much.
Quote:
Originally posted by Nerobro

now that's an Idea.. a high pressure matrix.......... but i'm getting ahead of myself.

personally, if I'm clicking a mouse trigger I can top 14bps. but that would be fanning on a gun. Just, it can be done.

Gravity feed is no longer an issue in the NPPL... and the new leagues as well. the warp is legal. the halo will also feed 18bps via gravity.
thats true, nppl does allow those hoppers. you do have to take a few things into account tho. if your running a warp, a warp can blast the balls in the tube and wheel into the gun, but after that, it may very well chop. if there are 15 balls stacked waiting to be fed, and you rip a string at 20 bps, you will probably chop the 16th or 17th ball. as for the halo, test results proved that it can only feed about 15 . unfortunatly, tournament tests have proved the halo to be completely worthless. its INCREDIBLY heavy, and it requires too many bateries (and drains them FAST). in terms of making an hp matrix, it would probably cycle faster, but you would lose all the no chop advantages that make the gun so great. no kick, no chopping, no noise, no hassle.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nerobro

wow.. some breaches actualy came out? what kinds are available?
TMC carries a number of matrix breaches. i believe they carry spyder, model 98, angel, and impulse threads.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nerobro

I apoogize, i didn't think i was THAT far off. Quite honestly I think the matrix is a really neat design. they pulled it off well. there's only one major moving part in the gun... and that's an impressive feat in and of itself. It reminds me of an automag that's had the spring and sear removed and replaced with a ram... which would probally be a good analogy. I would almost like to have seen then the manual trigger version... though that's a conversion to do when the matrixes get cheap to buy.

now... I wanna see a matrix based on high pressure... THAT would be a rocking gun.
it would definatly be cool if you could put together a mechanical frame. it would be REAL hard to do, as ALL The electronics on the inside would have to be replaced. again, like i said before, a high pressure matrix would have a few advantages, but nothing thats all that noticeable. the disadvantages would definatly outweigh the lp design's advantages. oh, and if your looking to get one cheap, you may be in luck. the lcd matrix is being release shortly, and i would assume the stock matrix LED price is gonna drop considerably.
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Old 04-03-2002, 04:12 PM #17
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a black dragun or a spyder is a tournament gun in the right hands. (mine..hehe)

Many higher priced "Tourney" guns are over-rated don't interest me at all, after owning several.
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Old 04-04-2002, 02:28 AM #18
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Quote:
the dragun has less of a chance of catching a ball, but if it does catch it, it will probably chop it. the matrix has a greater chance of catching a ball, but if it does, there is a lower chance it will chop it. as far as faster recharge goes, i don't think there are any problems. i'm not exactly sure how the novas worked, but i think the matrix is designed somewhat better. again, it can cycle around 20 times per second without a great deal of difficulty. being low pressure doesn't effect it all that much.
Ok, given that a dragun would feed paint more reliably. And given it's broken in, it will only stop on the ball not chop it.

Recharge is a funny thing. As you get into lower pressures air starts to behave.. really heavy. I think that's the best way to describe it. To bring up the utmost example.. Motorcycles have ram air induction, when you slam the throttle open at 100mph, it takes a few tenths of a seccond to recharge the chamber with air. this is because the pressure differntial is so small. The higher the pressure differntial, the faster the recharge.

Now this plays 2 ways. When the starting pressure is higher when you dump the chamber of air (the matrix is a gun that fires with a fixed volume of air, with different pressures to change velocity) from a higher pressure, it dumps more quickly than if you dump a chamber of lower pressure air. This is due to the velocity of the air coming out of the chamber sort of sucking the chamber dry. This is an issue AGD is dealign with on the new aluminum AIR valves. Though the true meaning of this will come up with the next quote ;-)

Quote:
if there are 15 balls stacked waiting to be fed, and you rip a string at 20 bps, you will probably chop the 16th or 17th ball. as for the halo, test results proved that it can only feed about 15 .
Well that's exactly what the warp is ment to do. it provides you with 15 balls at DISGUSTINGLY fast rates of fire. Your'e not ment to fire like that for more than half a seccond to a seccond.

As for halo feed issues, on a powerfeed they will feed the full 18bps. same for on a warp. the problem is ball bobble in vertical feeds... Weight isn't a concern for me.. my guns are already 10lbs or so.
Quote:
in terms of making an hp matrix, it would probably cycle faster, but you would lose all the no chop advantages that make the gun so great. no kick, no chopping, no noise, no hassle.
Ah, a high pressure matrix will be more velocity consistant, and less likely to dropoff at 20bps. (aka, it's a suspicion and I'd like to see testing with that bolt rocking as fast as it can) As for kick, the same energy would be released in the same way, so the gun would have the same "kick". chopping is related to the LPR pressure on teh bolt, and the trinity kit would work just as wonderously. ACtually the "kit" would be necessary just like on a cocker. Fireing and cocking at seperate pressures is a normal thing for us with autococking guns.

Quote:
it would definatly be cool if you could put together a mechanical frame. it would be REAL hard to do, as ALL The electronics on the inside would have to be replaced. again, like i said before, a high pressure matrix would have a few advantages, but nothing thats all that noticeable.
A mechanical frame would be drop dead easy ;-) The electronics don't need to be replaced, they need to be tossed. You replace the microswitch with a 4way valve and run it's outputs to where the solinoid normally is. And that's it.

The high pressure matrix (I'm not talking 800psi.. how about 350-400) would be MUCH smaller and lighter, be easier to feed air, and recharge faster. (especially with an AGD retro type reg... AGD is working on an linline reg based on the retrovalve.. *jumps for joy*)
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Old 04-04-2002, 08:24 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by morpheusZ

as for the halo, test results proved that it can only feed about 15 . unfortunatly, tournament tests have proved the halo to be completely worthless. its INCREDIBLY heavy, and it requires too many bateries (and drains them FAST).
someone has never used a so called worthless 15bps halo and must think a 10 to 12bps revvy is better? my halo feeds fine at 17bps when i sweetspot with no chops and piantballs every shot. it is just that some guns can't take the halo's feed rate (some markers double feed), the guns i know that work with the halo are all spyders, all draguns and some angels. the funny part is if you aren't using a halo or a warp you can't shoot as fast as i can on my PI-E2
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Old 04-04-2002, 07:31 PM #20
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graham: no, i've never used a halo. i don't think my rev is better either, its DEFINATLY not. the only thing, is the halo isn't worth it to me. i've held a gun with a halo on it, and its much heavier. it makes the gun a bit top heavy and tipsy. as far as the feed thing goes, lots of local people and net people have them, and maybe less then 5 of 30 like it. the feed rate is tested and not that consistant. oh, and your right, i definatly can't shoot as fast, i'm usin a cocker mostly now . i decided despite the loss of 4-5bps, i prefer the feel of a mechanical slide trigger.

nero: again, you make some very good points. if a high pressure matrix were designed, i don't think you'd be able to get the same ammount of pressure reduction tho on the bolt since the recocking system and firing system are directly connected, unlike many other guns. i'm not possitive tho. while your right that it would be smaller, it wouldn't be THAT much smaller. the air chamber isn't most of the inside of the gun. also, re-engineering of the body would be a better solution. the design isn't too efficient with space placement. one of the air chambers is just cosmetic to make the gun look even, and the batery could be removed and put in the grip frame without too much trouble. that would let you cut down the length of the gun, and take away the odd side extensions from a front view. back to the recharge thing tho. i'm not sure, i don't think there is really a drop off issue at normal speeds. i test fired about 30 balls from my matrix awhile ago on 14bps full auto (used a pipe for a vert ball stack), and there really was no noticeable drop off. i think the fact that the connections between the chambers are so huge helps the airflow aswell. i will admit tho, that there are some issues. a high flow tank on the matrix is a good idea, and thats why it comes with an extremely high flowing reg. the warp feed thing i sort of dissagree with aswell. while its true that you'd probably dump about 10 balls snapshooting, back players maintain incredibly high rates of fire for a long time, at least a few seconds, especialy on the break. one nice thing tho is you can get a side fed breach for the matrix to signifigantly lower your profile . as for kick, your right, it wouldn't matter if your trinity worked as well, but i'm just not sure that it could. and a mechanical frame, go for it, i can't wait to see a prototype . a matrix with a mechanical trigge would be VERY cool!
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Old 04-05-2002, 01:40 AM #21
Nerobro
 
 
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Location: Chicagoland
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 has been a member for 10 years
We'll see, as soon as I can get my hands on a matrix, I'll work on the mechanical frame. You've earned my respect morpheuz, you can wear that as a badge of honor ;-) I hope I have yours.
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