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Old 11-14-2004, 06:28 AM #22
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If there wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't put so much effort into doing it.

It's also a safety issue (if we didn't have the rule, everyone would have totally nuts triggers, leaving us with many balls being shot instead of one in the case of an accidental discharge).

As for the robot:

It's pretty simple, one shot, one pull. The only thing the robot does is a better job of enforcing the rules. If you don't want to be DQ'd, DON'T CHEAT! The gun apparently had a debounce setting of 1, and there's only two reasons for that: You want your gun to shoot faster than you pull the trigger, or you're an idiot, both of which are your fault.

There have been, what, less than 10 DQ's this season? They're not DQing people for trigger bounce. If they were, they'd be DQing half the teams. People who are getting DQ'd have boards or guns that add shots. It may suck if you go and buy "the latest fastest board" online and it add shots and the people you bought it from were shady about spelling that out, but then again...

What did you expect? Do you guys think these boards make your fingers move faster?


As in any sport, there needs to be a line beyond which people are not allowed to use technology to improve. I there was technology for autotargetting markers and heat-sinking paintballs, people would be trying to use it, and whining and *****ing that it wasn't allowed.

Part of playing paintball is being able to pull your own damned trigger. Just because you can buy a board to do it for you is a crappy reason to eliminate that part of the game, just like letting people put gasoline engines on their bikes would be a pretty stupid thing for the Tour de France.

Anyway, props to NPPL for applying the rules to the big guys as well as the small guys.

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Old 11-14-2004, 06:44 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pirate Red Beard
this whole robot thing is getting way out of hand, honestly the punishment dosent quite match the crime. why get kicked out of the event for one guy, its a bit overkill. also why not check before games, in every other sport they do equipment checks, like in soccer and rugby they check your cleats for a toe cleat to make sure you dont have them so why not check the gun before hand. i say either check before hand or dont worry about it, and with how fast guns shoot these days anyways, and with everyone knowing how to do it, i dont see the advantage in the baords or bounceing so in my eyes its not a major offense.
Why should it be up to the org. putting on the event to check before hand? It should be up to the team wanting in to make sure all their equipment is legel.

If I understand the robot is just what you described, like in soccer and rugby they are doing an equipment check before hand.

I do agree though, maybe DQ the player, or maybe drop the equipment from the match. DQ the the team as a whole seems a bit much.
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:35 AM #24
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Props to the NPPL for cracking down on these coked up boards. Whatever happened to skills? These people must be ashamed of their personal package, so they must figure that they gotta compensate some how.

Dynasty your empire is slowly coming down. You guys aren't all the hype that you once thought you were. ITS JUST NOW THE BIG GUYS ARE STARTING TO PLAY NPPL, AND YOU ARE GETTING YOUR BUTTS HANDED TO YA.

Haha, Bushwackers International beat Dynasty 98-0, thas hilarious.

Last edited by CaptHowdy : 11-14-2004 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:42 AM #25
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Bounce = when you can cause the marker to fire by not pulling the trigger or by using very little force on the trigger. The term bounce comes from the ability of the trigger to "bounce" off the finger and repeatedly fire

Ramping = adding shots to trigger pullls

Shooting additional shots = Ramping NOT bounce.
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:44 AM #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaptHowdy
Props to the NPPL for cracking down on these coked up boards. Whatever happened to skills? These people must be ashamed of their personal package, so they must figure that they gotta compensate some how.

Dynasty your empire is slowly coming down. You guys aren't all the hype that you once thought you were. ITS JUST NOW THE BIG GUYS ARE STARTING TO PLAY NPPL, AND YOU ARE GETTING YOUR BUTTS HANDED TO YA.

Haha, Bushwackers International beat Dynasty 98-0, thas hilarious.
Actually 95-0, in a meaningless game for both teams. Bushwackers couldn't make finals unless they scored 101 points against Dynasty.

Does anyone know if the game actually took place?

Oh, and thanks Will for the information. It is rare that I find some reliable information about a controversial issue here...
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:49 AM #27
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Originally posted by tji
I agree that anyone running DB1 should expect trouble. However, I think the whole robot thing is a little shady. They don't give you a chance to test your gun at the robot until it's too late, and then they slap you w/ a huge penalty. I say no robot until it's available to players BEFORE the games begin.
First off, the robot is not there for teams to use "before" a game. It's there to test markers if an official feels that one may be adding shots, bouncing, or whatever (too bad they didnt have it at the World Cup).

Secondly, if a team is allowed to test a marker before a game or before the event, what's to stop them from changing the settings after the marker has been tested?
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Old 11-14-2004, 09:49 AM #28
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"Haha, Bushwackers International beat Dynasty 98-0, thas hilarious." - CaptHowdy

Hey capt. Dynasty is the ONLY team in San Diego to max ALL of their games. The only reason why they got a 0 hater is because the Dynasty players shut off their guns because they didn't want the biased and impartial system to take their guns to the robot and get them dq'd. Not just biased against dynasty, but there is little doubt that 80% of the teams have at least 1 illegal gun on them and dqing a team is messed up. i watched at least 20 blatently illegal guns yesterday without the refs lifting a finger. there's no chance this gun's legal:
http://www.pbstar.com/events/album115/IMG_4762.jpg i've never seen so many balls come out in one single picture of a gun. but anyway, entourage should have known better and played to a higher standard. being the most visible team of the "no name" teams (a lot of people don't associate entourage with dynasty) who managed to piss everyone off by making the pro cut after 2 events its no wonder how they got single out.

Last edited by pbmissy : 11-14-2004 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 11-14-2004, 10:20 AM #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealmPB
First off, the robot is not there for teams to use "before" a game. It's there to test markers if an official feels that one may be adding shots, bouncing, or whatever (too bad they didnt have it at the World Cup).

Secondly, if a team is allowed to test a marker before a game or before the event, what's to stop them from changing the settings after the marker has been tested?
First, I know how the system works, I've played NPPL before. My point is a hypothetical one. If a player checks his gun with the robot beforehand, and THEN changes their settings, it is blatant cheating. That team SHOULD be DQ'd. It would be no different than someone chrono'ing in and then pulling out an allen wrench on the field.
Everyone here thinks they know what a "legal" setup is, but what is that judgement based on? How the marker 'feels' when you shoot it? The truth is that with bounce, many players simply don't know which settings are legal or not, so let's give them a chance to find out beforehand.


BIG P - If the responsibility for safety is TOTALLY on the player, then why does the "org" chrono teams before the game? It's kind of a double standand.

All I'm saying is, make the robot available to the players so everything is out in the open. $1500 is a lot of money to lose for what could be (although not in the case of entourage) a honest mistake.
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Old 11-14-2004, 11:57 AM #30
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Punishment=Crime

If the punishment was any less severe, it would not matter if the team got caught cheating. This punishment makes a statement to players: If you cheat and get caught, you’re gone. Period!

Upper level teams need the seed points and exposure to maintain their sponsorships, so that is what you have to take away if they break the rules. The impact will work down though the lower ranks.

The team should be responsible for its players, if one player cheats the whole team gets punished. That is the only way the rules stick.

If you don't like the rules don't play.
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Old 11-14-2004, 12:29 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by raehl
They're not DQing people for trigger bounce.
Quote:
Originally posted by FlipFlops
The disqualification is officially due to "excessive bounce".

NOT RAMPING, NOT CHEATING, just bounce.
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Old 11-14-2004, 12:33 PM #32
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Re: Punishment=Crime

Quote:
Originally posted by Wizard12341
If the punishment was any less severe, it would not matter if the team got caught cheating. This punishment makes a statement to players: If you cheat and get caught, you’re gone. Period!
Wiping, the ultimate "cheat", is a 3 for 1 and not a DQ
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Old 11-14-2004, 12:35 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by islandboi
so far the best arguement i've heard against em is if you're not concntrating on shooting fast (who the hell concntrates on shooting fast) then you can concentrate on other things. I think bounce is a problem ramping I'm actually all right with oh and what's with the toe cleat thing?
that was just an example from other sports on equipment checks, but in in rugby they tend to give you an advantage in sprinting and digging in, in scrums so they decided to not allow them i dont know the whole story andim too lazy to reasearch i just know things from playing.
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:26 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pirate Red Beard
this whole robot thing is getting way out of hand, honestly the punishment dosent quite match the crime. why get kicked out of the event for one guy, its a bit overkill. also why not check before games, in every other sport they do equipment checks, like in soccer and rugby they check your cleats for a toe cleat to make sure you dont have them so why not check the gun before hand. i say either check before hand or dont worry about it, and with how fast guns shoot these days anyways, and with everyone knowing how to do it, i dont see the advantage in the baords or bounceing so in my eyes its not a major offense.
You know what it comes down to safety, and scene when has safety in our sport been a bad thing. It was stated that the gun in question had a retail Dynasty Shocker board and was set at debounce 1. On the robot it would shoot anywhere from 2-10 additional shots when programmed to fire 20 times.
As it is one hurts when you get it in the wrong spot but having a few extra could be very bad.

The NPPL has given all teams the fair warning of if you have anything outside of our rules you will be DQ'd. Yes this is a harsh punishment but it sure will get the message across in a hurry and make our sport that much more safe. I personally find nothing wrong with it as it makes a very serious line in the sand.

Peace
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:27 PM #35
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RealmPB: Ramping is in the programming, bounce is not.

Tadao boards allow you to run DB1 and still have no first shot bounce because of AMB. Its the users responsability to make sure it doesnt bounce after the first shot, like shooting xtra when u let go of the trigger. Meaning, the gun bounces at higher rates of fire, giving it a ramping effect but not actually ramping.
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:46 PM #36
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Rules

I don't think anyone can argue against the fariness of the NPPL decision. The rule was made very clear before the start of the tournament. If you have an illegal gun, your team is gone. There was absolutely no ambiguity about it. It might be unfair that other alleged "illegal" guns did not get tested, but the bottom line is that the rule was indeed enforced, and it was a rule that the team knew about before the event. As someone said earlier, it was a risk. This should show teams that it's not worth the risk, and I wouldn't be surprised if the league began cracking down even more on illegal guns.

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Old 11-14-2004, 02:49 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinch&mug
Different definitions of bounce. If your debounce is at 1, the extra shots are being added electronically, not because your trigger actually moves back and forth extra times due to recoil or whatever.

Will is calling it bounce because he wants to make sure people don't think they were DQ'd for "cheater boards". It doesn't sound like the boards were any more of a "cheater board' than any other board with a debounce setting, but the boards were definitely in a "cheater mode".

Anyway, the important part is:

Entourage got DQ'd because they used a gun set in a cheater mode.


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Old 11-14-2004, 03:06 PM #38
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SET UP ILLEGALLY!! Not in an illegal 'mode'

It iss possible that a gun with db1 could be legal, but for that particular gun it obviously wasn't.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:45 PM #39
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It's also possible to shoot the top, front edge of your opponen's bunker, bounce the ball straight up in the air, and score the elimination when it lands on their head.

The difference between putting a marker in DB1 mode or 3-shot burst mode is semantics. There's no reasonable expectation that extra shots are not being added either way.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:51 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by raehl
It's also possible to shoot the top, front edge of your opponen's bunker, bounce the ball straight up in the air, and score the elimination when it lands on their head.

The difference between putting a marker in DB1 mode or 3-shot burst mode is semantics. There's no reasonable expectation that extra shots are not being added either way.
Its not semantics, its your ignorance. The difference between the two is that 3 shot burst is programmed in. Meaning, it will always be 3 shots. With bounce, it can be anywhere from 1 shot to 3 shots to running away.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:28 PM #41
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Ive had several guns that I've ran in DB1 and were perfectly legal. 1 pull 1 shot, 20 pulls 20 shots, no bounce at all. It was a legally fast gun that ran on DB1. You act like DB1 is illegal, its not. Only if the gun adds shots because of bounce is it illegal.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:36 PM #42
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why cant we all just put our guns on semi-auto and play w/o all these cheat boards and bounce and such..
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