Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-27-2014, 08:21 PM #1
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Laser etching entire surface

I saw that white Cyborg in, I think, the curator's subforum and that it was lasered white. Can you protect raw aluminum with lasering? Or is it more of a cosmetic finish on top of standard anodizing? Also, assuming you can hit it with a laser, can you laser an oring sealing surface to protect the raw aluminum and will the oring both seal properly and not create too much friction?

I'm working on a project and I know there's a few laser machines at my school, but I don't know if I can anodize here.
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 01-27-2014, 08:34 PM #2
cpt_crunch
 
 
cpt_crunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
cpt_crunch has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
You seem to be working with the idea that lasers add material. Lasers burn the dye out of the anodizing so in theory the thickness is unchanged and the protective anodized coating unaffected.

You can anodize an o-ring surface, in fact there are several markers out there with anodized interiors in their top tubes. Mostly older guns. anodizing does alter the thickness of the metal but only very slightly.

You can use a laser to etch raw aluminum but it takes a much meaner laser than the ones used to make designs in anodizing
__________________
Christian
Senior Mechanical Engineering Student
Apprentice Machinist
Lover of All Things Paintball

Buy my airsoft gear
cpt_crunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 09:08 PM #3
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpt_crunch View Post
You seem to be working with the idea that lasers add material. Lasers burn the dye out of the anodizing so in theory the thickness is unchanged and the protective anodized coating unaffected.

You can anodize an o-ring surface, in fact there are several markers out there with anodized interiors in their top tubes. Mostly older guns. anodizing does alter the thickness of the metal but only very slightly.

You can use a laser to etch raw aluminum but it takes a much meaner laser than the ones used to make designs in anodizing
I know lasers don't add material. What I'm not sure about is whether lasering a raw aluminum part will add (figuratively) a layer of protection to the raw metal. And also whether it will seal against an oring without too much friction. (Did you mean to say "laser" instead of "anodize" in your second paragraph?) And I think the lasers I have access to are powerful enough. They are frequently used to cut thin metal parts.
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 10:02 PM #4
paintballer187
187PB.COM
 
paintballer187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.P. of MI
Annual Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a Moderator
paintballer187 is a Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
paintballer187 is BST Legit
paintballer187 works for a Paintball manufacturer
No you cannot protect raw aluminum with laser engraving. As mentioned, the laser only burns the color out of the anodized layer. Even on anodized aluminum it doesn't add anything.

A co2 laser that most people use in the paintball word cannot cut through metals. A yag will cut through metal and can even add a cool 3d affect to metals, as seen on some firearm parts.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the oring sealing question.
paintballer187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 11:11 PM #5
Twaltz628
newb for 8 yrs & counting
 
Twaltz628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NC
Annual Supporting Member
Twaltz628 has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 supports Empire
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
No you cannot protect raw aluminum with laser engraving. As mentioned, the laser only burns the color out of the anodized layer. Even on anodized aluminum it doesn't add anything.

A co2 laser that most people use in the paintball word cannot cut through metals. A yag will cut through metal and can even add a cool 3d affect to metals, as seen on some firearm parts.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the oring sealing question.
I must disagree. We have a Haas 500 watt CO2 laser that cuts through metal just fine. 1/2" of steel in fact. To be fair though, aluminium's reflective property tends to make it more difficult, but we've still done it. But, if op is using a similar laser, the power can be turned down and actually can be quite effective at etching and engraving. We do it all the time.

Also, I did just notice you used the word "most" so I guess you were referring to smaller lasers.
__________________
Insert funny, witty, inspirational or sales signature here.

Last edited by Twaltz628 : 01-27-2014 at 11:19 PM.
Twaltz628 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 11:52 PM #6
2nwyka
A Lover and a Poet
 
2nwyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
2nwyka posts videos on PbNation
2nwyka has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twaltz628 View Post
I must disagree. We have a Haas 500 watt CO2 laser that cuts through metal just fine. 1/2" of steel in fact. To be fair though, aluminium's reflective property tends to make it more difficult, but we've still done it. But, if op is using a similar laser, the power can be turned down and actually can be quite effective at etching and engraving. We do it all the time.

Also, I did just notice you used the word "most" so I guess you were referring to smaller lasers.
I know for sure that the laser at my old school would never have a chance of cutting through metal. I engraved a 'Cocker body for a dinking-around project as a TA and it did a nice job on that.
But other than that, a laser won't really change the composition of the aluminum at the kinds of outputs you're talking about.
That'd be interesting to see lasers used for tempering steel...I'm not sure it they're using that tech currently. I wouldn't think so, too expensive.
Noah
__________________
Learn more about paintball! Articles Videos!!
CSU Rams Paintball
Black Widow AutoCocker for trade!

Rocking drop-forwards like they're going out of style...oh, wait...
Proud Pumper since 2011
2nwyka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 01:37 PM #7
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
No you cannot protect raw aluminum with laser engraving. As mentioned, the laser only burns the color out of the anodized layer. Even on anodized aluminum it doesn't add anything.
Are you sure that's all a laser does? In the Cyborg post, it was implied that lasering gives aluminum a white finish, which is not ano or raw aluminum. My friend has a gloss black reg with lasering and the lasered areas have a different texture (feels like dust ano). If the laser is removing metal to create a rougher surface, I don't see why it wouldn't work with raw aluminum. And by "protect raw aluminum" I'm asking if a lasered surface is a different composition (harder) than straight aluminum (like aluminum oxide of ano) or is it just aluminum with texturing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
A co2 laser that most people use in the paintball word cannot cut through metals. A yag will cut through metal and can even add a cool 3d affect to metals, as seen on some firearm parts.
The laser at my school is used to cut metal, so the power is there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the oring sealing question.
Like I said about the texture of lasered parts, will an oring seal against the rougher lasered sections without too much friction? i.e. has it been done before? It is rougher, but light polishing is an option.
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 02:30 PM #8
paintballer187
187PB.COM
 
paintballer187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.P. of MI
Annual Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a Moderator
paintballer187 is a Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
paintballer187 is BST Legit
paintballer187 works for a Paintball manufacturer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twaltz628 View Post
I must disagree. We have a Haas 500 watt CO2 laser that cuts through metal just fine. 1/2" of steel in fact. To be fair though, aluminium's reflective property tends to make it more difficult, but we've still done it. But, if op is using a similar laser, the power can be turned down and actually can be quite effective at etching and engraving. We do it all the time.

Also, I did just notice you used the word "most" so I guess you were referring to smaller lasers.
I'm sure Kohn, hybrid, myself and others aren't using a 500 watt laser. I wouldn't even think you could buy that power in the relatively small platform you would normally used to engrave a gun. My epilog is 12x18 with a 35 watt laser.

What you're talking about sounds like something that a fabrication shop would have. Would you be able to turn that down enough to engrave a paintball gun in the manner that most people are used to seeing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyronejk View Post
Are you sure that's all a laser does? In the Cyborg post, it was implied that lasering gives aluminum a white finish, which is not ano or raw aluminum. My friend has a gloss black reg with lasering and the lasered areas have a different texture (feels like dust ano). If the laser is removing metal to create a rougher surface, I don't see why it wouldn't work with raw aluminum. And by "protect raw aluminum" I'm asking if a lasered surface is a different composition (harder) than straight aluminum (like aluminum oxide of ano) or is it just aluminum with texturing.

The laser at my school is used to cut metal, so the power is there.

Like I said about the texture of lasered parts, will an oring seal against the rougher lasered sections without too much friction? i.e. has it been done before? It is rougher, but light polishing is an option.
All I can tell you is what my laser does. From what I have seen and other people I have talked to with similar laser setups. The white finish from engraving an anodized gun is only the removal of the color. It will not do this (with my laser) to raw aluminum. There is a bit of a texture difference, you can see that easiest on gloss guns. I can't think of any instance that you would engraving a part where on oring would seal against it. It doesn't add anything so why do it.

So I think this is the bottom line. I don't know what make, model, size, or power the laser at your school is. You're better off asking someone who runs it there about it. I can only speculate based on my equipment and experience.
paintballer187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 02:13 PM #9
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
So does lasering affect aluminum (or aluminum oxide) chemically in any way?

And if it doesn't, how do you get a white color (like the Cyborg)?
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 03:10 PM #10
Kr@zy K
昇龍拳!
 
Kr@zy K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: .......White room.......
Annual Supporting Member
Kr@zy K is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Kr@zy K supports Bob Gurnsey
Kr@zy K is reppin' sidebar 4 life
I get what you're saying, but I don't think laser etching would protect raw aluminum. Also, I wouldn't worry about the o-ring issue, I highly doubt you would have a seating/leaking problem if the lasering was done properly.

I'm not really sure in totality what you're trying to do. Seems like you're a bit worried about the seeming fragility of raw aluminum. I know that most people would be highly against using something composed of raw aluminum on a regular basis, but honestly it's not that huge of an issue as long as you take care of the raw surfaces and you don't live in too harsh a climate.
__________________
.
.
.
ThegrassisnevergreenerontheothersidesoIwillplayinthedirtandrocks.
Kr@zy K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 04:01 PM #11
paintballer187
187PB.COM
 
paintballer187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.P. of MI
Annual Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a Moderator
paintballer187 is a Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
paintballer187 is BST Legit
paintballer187 works for a Paintball manufacturer
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyronejk View Post
So does lasering affect aluminum (or aluminum oxide) chemically in any way?

And if it doesn't, how do you get a white color (like the Cyborg)?
No there is no chemical change.

Can you link to this cyborg that you're referencing?
paintballer187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 10:54 PM #12
SlieSTL
 
 
SlieSTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: St.Louis
SlieSTL has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
SlieSTL has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Ive used a wheel cleaning acid on raw aluminum at work (body shop)before and it turned it completely white just like the cyborg you are referring to. It seemed to give the aluminum a very fine texture (similar to 2000 grit sandpaper) I doubt this is how the cyborg was done.. but maybe something to experiment with. Im not sure what type of acid it is, I can take a picture of the container tomorrow if you are interested
SlieSTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 11:36 PM #13
Twaltz628
newb for 8 yrs & counting
 
Twaltz628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NC
Annual Supporting Member
Twaltz628 has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 supports Empire
SlieSTL- I wouldn't mind seeing, if it's not too much trouble

And paintballer187, the laser I'm speaking of is in my school's machine shop. I forget how "unique" the equipment is. Only reason we have it is because it was donated by Jeff Gordon's team. But yes, the power can be turned down to perform decently detailed engraving operations. I need to see if I have a picture of any work.
__________________
Insert funny, witty, inspirational or sales signature here.
Twaltz628 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 11:44 PM #14
SlieSTL
 
 
SlieSTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: St.Louis
SlieSTL has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
SlieSTL has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
no problem.. its actually got me wanting to test some spare parts I have to see if it works and is durable.
SlieSTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 01:16 AM #15
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kr@zy K View Post
I get what you're saying, but I don't think laser etching would protect raw aluminum. Also, I wouldn't worry about the o-ring issue, I highly doubt you would have a seating/leaking problem if the lasering was done properly.

I'm not really sure in totality what you're trying to do. Seems like you're a bit worried about the seeming fragility of raw aluminum. I know that most people would be highly against using something composed of raw aluminum on a regular basis, but honestly it's not that huge of an issue as long as you take care of the raw surfaces and you don't live in too harsh a climate.
Yeah, I don't mind playing with the raw aluminum. Just that if lasering does anything to help, I'd might as well do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
No there is no chemical change.

Can you link to this cyborg that you're referencing?
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=4016695
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 06:54 AM #16
paintballer187
187PB.COM
 
paintballer187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.P. of MI
Annual Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a Moderator
paintballer187 is a Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
paintballer187 is BST Legit
paintballer187 works for a Paintball manufacturer
I didn't watch the videos but from looking at the thread I don't see anywhere that it says that is has been laser engraved. That looks more like a chemical etch to give it that texture, which I have had done with anodizing before. Furthermore, there is 0 chance that it was engraved just by looking at the gun.
paintballer187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 01:20 PM #17
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer187 View Post
I didn't watch the videos but from looking at the thread I don't see anywhere that it says that is has been laser engraved. That looks more like a chemical etch to give it that texture, which I have had done with anodizing before. Furthermore, there is 0 chance that it was engraved just by looking at the gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omenworker View Post
Hey hey hey! First time I've been on in a long while. Good to see my gun still holds up. I wished I had never sold it, and I wish I could get up with the guy who bought it to buy it back...

Anyway what good times I had back then. I'm still sitting on an OG Sonic Borg that once I get my Conquest re-hydroed I could shoot it.

James@Macdev and Bjorne - can I do a trade for a Clone or leftover RX? Haha. I can even throw in some new music for you! Hope things are well down under.

I don't really know any of you newer guys, I'm old, married with kids now. But LL MacDev.

Maybe I'll host all of my video library soon. I made far too many with the help of my teammate timfactor.

Cheers,

Omenworker

PS it wasn't powdercoat merely a fantastic etching on great metal. It was truly a stormtrooper finish.
I'm assuming he means laser when he says "etched."
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 03:01 PM #18
paintballer187
187PB.COM
 
paintballer187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.P. of MI
Annual Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a Moderator
paintballer187 is a Supporting Member
paintballer187 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
paintballer187 is BST Legit
paintballer187 works for a Paintball manufacturer
This whole thread is based on a poor assumption. I'm telling you that there is no way that gun was laser engraved. A laser will not give you that uniform of a finish when you need to run that many passes and put it on every side of the gun. It is also impossible to get inside of the trigger frame like that.
paintballer187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 03:15 PM #19
p_ballin03
Winnipeg 420 Army
 
p_ballin03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: MB Canada
p_ballin03 plays in the APPA D4 division
p_ballin03 has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
p_ballin03 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
p_ballin03 supports DLX Technology
When he says etched he is talking about submerging it in an etching bath, or covering it for a period of time with an etching cream. Etching and lasering are two totally different processes.
__________________
LUXE MOB
p_ballin03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 05:08 PM #20
Twaltz628
newb for 8 yrs & counting
 
Twaltz628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NC
Annual Supporting Member
Twaltz628 has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Twaltz628 supports Empire
Yes, there's no way that was done with laser. A laser's resolution can be about as fine as a strand of hair, roughly. It can be more or less due to tapering of the beam, but it loses strength as its focus grows larger. In other words, imagine a laser passing both sides of the marker with only the thickness of about a hair. There would be thousands of passes per side. I'm not going to say its impossible to do this, but definitely for far from practical. Sorry bud, not a laser.
__________________
Insert funny, witty, inspirational or sales signature here.
Twaltz628 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 06:18 PM #21
tyronejk
titular
 
tyronejk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
tyronejk is an NCPA player
tyronejk plays in the APPA beginner division
Well **** me. Thanks for the responses. I'll just be leaving my project raw.
__________________
Current markers: 2011 G6R | Axe | Lasoya Promaster | Double-barrel Ion

Theoretical max efficiency of a marker
Automated paintball turret
tyronejk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump