Change - Page 4 - PbNation
Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 08-19-2004, 10:16 PM #64
Brewmaster
You guys suck.
 
Brewmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bullhead City, AZ
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by bern
First off i have not had the opporotunity to take such a class, so instead of flaming me for an observation, why dont you provide evidance that that observation is wrong, as you seem to think it is.

I agree with renegade, if those coporate bastards would not be so damned greedy my tax money would not have to bail them out.

the problem with capitalism is that most peole have to be poor. not everyone can be rich. for every rich person there has to be many poor people below him, and he has to be taking a cut of their salary. it is the burden of the rich because they are the ones keeping money from the poor. i am not saying give money to those who do not work, i am saying that since sitting on your *** making decisions is no more difficult than working the drive through, those positions, all positions, should pay equally (assuming they both work the same hours).
No opportunity? Awwwwwww.

Slinger, say the word for me. You never back me, even when I know you agree with me. I know you've seen me slap a conservative when they screw up....

Not true... if everyone had enough of what it takes, we'dall have tiny little businesses, each filling a local niche.
__________________
"tHIS "bREWMASTER" HAS NO IDEA HOW POLITICS REALLY WORK I bet this guy is unemployed,begs on street-corners and collects food stamps!" - XTRMelite

"Hello, 911? It's Quagmire. Yeah, it's caught in the window this time." - Quagmire

"I don't understand the point of this thread..." - zack

Back to school special! Your quote could be sigged here for as little as 25 cents per day! PM me for details.
Brewmaster is offline  
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 08-19-2004, 10:19 PM #65
P8le Dricmade
Magicians never die
 
P8le Dricmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewmaster
No opportunity? Awwwwwww.
Hey you! Back off. He's mine.
__________________
:D
P8le Dricmade is offline  
Old 08-19-2004, 10:54 PM #66
SlingerXL
Stands to reason
 
SlingerXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
SlingerXL is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewmaster
NSlinger, say the word for me. You never back me, even when I know you agree with me. I know you've seen me slap a conservative when they screw up....
Source!
SlingerXL is offline  
Old 08-19-2004, 10:57 PM #67
SlingerXL
Stands to reason
 
SlingerXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
SlingerXL is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
I'm not a political science major, so I'm not even gonna comment on this thread seeing as so far everything that's been said has been too vague.
SlingerXL is offline  
Old 08-19-2004, 11:27 PM #68
Azzkicka (Banned)
 
 
Azzkicka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Indiana
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
the problem with capitalism is that most peole have to be poor.
i like how people complain about being poor when they cant have as big of an suv or tv as thier neighbor i say your not poor unless your homeless, if you have warm food on the table and a dry place to sleep you should be grateful
get over it, life isnt fair. we as americans have fairly easy lives compared to the rest of the world.
Azzkicka is offline  
Old 08-19-2004, 11:41 PM #69
P8le Dricmade
Magicians never die
 
P8le Dricmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
I was having this conversation with Zack on AIM just before.

An American who is poor lives in a run down apartment and has troubles paying the bills each month.

An African who is poor lives under a tree and will die typically by his mid 40's if he even lives passed 5.

The word 'poor' isn't universal. It is based on the standard of living. I can hardly believe that a poor person in Africa has it similar to the typical poor/low-income person in America.
__________________
:D
P8le Dricmade is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:40 AM #70
bern
 
 
bern's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
b.) So therefore anybody at the "bottom" must be poor? So, wait, hold on, hold on, he who is a plumber who works for a company must be poor. Wait, give me a second... of the thousands of employees for Microsoft, they ALL must be poor? All electrictians must be poor. After all, they work for a company. Saying that those at the "bottom" are poor is needless to say, untrue.
I am referring to the whole world not just the US.
No not "must be" but usually are. maybe microsoft pays their workers well. some small businesses in the US are doing fine. i am referring the 3 billion source. living in extreme poverty, having less then 2 dollars a day. this coupled with the not-quite-as-poor, easily constitutes MOST of the worlds 6.4 billion people. Those 3 billion people are not poor because they are lazy. they are poor because that is the econmic condition that capitalism has left wherever they live in. That alone tells me that capitalism is a failure.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brewmaster
Not true... if everyone had enough of what it takes, we'dall have tiny little businesses, each filling a local niche.
No. that only works if we all start equally. There are places in the world that no matter how hard you work you cannot get ahead.

EDIT: And just so you people know, this is not a complaint of myself bieng poor, because i am not (obviously i have a computer). I just dont think that capitalism works, and i dont have to be at the losing end to see it.
__________________
well ****

Last edited by bern : 08-20-2004 at 01:45 AM.
bern is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 09:25 AM #71
P8le Dricmade
Magicians never die
 
P8le Dricmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by bern
Those 3 billion people are not poor because they are lazy. they are poor because that is the econmic condition that capitalism has left wherever they live in. That alone tells me that capitalism is a failure.

EDIT: And just so you people know, this is not a complaint of myself bieng poor, because i am not (obviously i have a computer). I just dont think that capitalism works, and i dont have to be at the losing end to see it.
There are 33 industrialized, capitalistic countries. There are 192 countries in the world.

You are assuming that every single county is capitalistic to claim that these 3 billion people are poor. It is not capitalism that makes the people poor, it is a poor central government that offers no social benefits.

Let me put it this way, and I'll save you a lot of time and patience. If you are here to try to denounce capitalism and have the audacity to say that communism is better, you will NOT win the argument. I've simply been playing with you. I could just as easily take out the Communist Manifesto and hand pick the flaws. I could take out Wealth of Nations and Capitlalism and Freedom and probably make you not be able to post much anymore.

I don't carry my ego with me into posts, but this is a disclaimer. I, along with many other members, can simply tear 99% of any of your arguments against capitalism apart. I'll call Mag at work and I'm sure on his lunch break he'll stop by this thread. It will take him a bit, but he'll stop laughing sooner or later.
__________________
:D
P8le Dricmade is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 10:20 AM #72
Tiny (Banned)
The Real Tiny
 
Tiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Land of Liars
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewmaster
Did anyone force those people to work for those companies? Did anyone give their mommy drugs before they were born so they wouldn't be smart enough to earn more? (I meant rich people or the Government, not the mommies themselves or their friends or whatever). I didn't hold anyone back. I shouldn't have to pay for their food or to support the kids they can't afford but keep having. Now, if I get a dollar for dollar tax break for charity and get to choose which people get my help, that's another matter. I don't feel guilty because some people are more successful than others. What's next? Every time a paintball team loses a game someone in the league has to pay extra so that the losers get better gear, or maybe free paintball camp? Suuuure.... Hell, I'll make a team and lose every game if I get free stuff for it. Go ahead and say I'd probably lose anyway. But it'll be lame because I'm saying it first. I'd probably lose anyway.

Why do you people insist that people are entitled to Government handouts, paid for by money extorted from people that earn money, just because the aided people are failures?
I am against welfare, you are misinterpreting my message. I am talking about the working class. The people who actually make these companies run. The fact that 67% of the wealth is held by 10% of the working people to me is wrong. I believe that the wealth should be more evenly distributed among the employees. Imagine what that would do the economy. Right now an estimated 33% of the wealth is distributed. Imagine how the economy would be bolstered if 50% of the wealth was distributed or maybe even 70% let's go with 50%

293,027,571 People Overall
133,292,000 Employed People (of that 119,962,800 are working class and 13,329,200 are Elite)
6% - Are Unemployed
$10,980,000,000,000 is our GDP
12% - are below the Poverty line
$3,623,400,000,000 33% of the GDP
$5,490,000,000,000 50% of the GDP
$7,686,000,000,000 70% of the GDP


With our distribution of employment as managerial, professional, and technical 31%, sales and office 28.9%, services 13.6%, manufacturing, extraction, transportation, and crafts 24.1%, farming, forestry, and fishing 2.4%

Right now our median income for the United States is: $31,543 if the wealth were more evenly distributed that number would rise

Right now 33% of GDP = $31,543.00
If it were 50% of GDP = $49,764.00
If it were 70% of GDP = $69,687.00

And yet the mean average of the elite 10% of this nation would still be

Right now it is: $551,916.00
If 50% were distributed - $411,877.00
If 70% were distributed - $247,126.00

Of course all of this is a median index and does not reflect true numbers where ultra elite maintains Billions in income and actually flaws the data. Nonetheless, a better distribution of wealth would bolster a stronger economy and end up creating a higher GDP therefore the rich get richer and so do the working class.

But of course I didnít think my statement through.

Sources:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html
http://www.co.larimer.co.us/compass/...ome_ec_ind.htm
http://www.census.gov

Last edited by Tiny : 08-20-2004 at 10:46 AM.
Tiny is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 11:42 AM #73
Brewmaster
You guys suck.
 
Brewmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bullhead City, AZ
 has been a member for 10 years
In other words, you feel a moral obligation to be charitable to the less fortunate. I include in that category those who, even if working, aren't intelligent enough, motivated enough, and/or persistent enough to reach higher than the jobs they have accepted. [Pre-emptive strike]Don't even try that "family to feed" nonsense. They should have kept it in their pants, or out of their pants, as appropriate.[/Pre-emptive strike] Redistributing MY money to someone with OR without a job is welfare IMHO. I appreciate that you care about the less fortunate. I'm sure you gave them all of your extra tax refund, since you liberals think the Government should have kept it and redistributed it anyway. At least you got to choose which needy people got it, right?

Your data does not take into account the lower overall productivity and investment by the upper income people that will occur, and get worse and worse the closer to absolute Communism you go. That IS what you are advocating, you realize. Also, your sources give no evidence that your idea will work. We have seen many sources here showing that communism doesn't work.
__________________
"tHIS "bREWMASTER" HAS NO IDEA HOW POLITICS REALLY WORK I bet this guy is unemployed,begs on street-corners and collects food stamps!" - XTRMelite

"Hello, 911? It's Quagmire. Yeah, it's caught in the window this time." - Quagmire

"I don't understand the point of this thread..." - zack

Back to school special! Your quote could be sigged here for as little as 25 cents per day! PM me for details.
Brewmaster is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 12:48 PM #74
SlingerXL
Stands to reason
 
SlingerXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
SlingerXL is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
It is not capitalism that makes the people poor, it is a poor central government that offers no social benefits.
Then are you advocating welfare?
SlingerXL is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 12:53 PM #75
renegade8
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Nice post Tiny. That's how I agree things should be. Pay your employees better for the job they do. Let more people reap the benefits our country has to offer. Why should just the elite get to enjoy the benefits. It's not about people not wanting to work, it's about corporate greed period.

Enron is a perfect example of how far the greed is. The company is gone, the executives are still receiving money while the pensions are gone and the people are screwed....if that's how capitalism works then it is a flawed system period. If that's not how capitalism is supposed to work then some reforms are needed for sure.
renegade8 is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:07 PM #76
Tiny (Banned)
The Real Tiny
 
Tiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Land of Liars
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewmaster
In other words, you feel a moral obligation to be charitable to the less fortunate. I include in that category those who, even if working, aren't intelligent enough, motivated enough, and/or persistent enough to reach higher than the jobs they have accepted. [Pre-emptive strike]Don't even try that "family to feed" nonsense. They should have kept it in their pants, or out of their pants, as appropriate.[/Pre-emptive strike] Redistributing MY money to someone with OR without a job is welfare IMHO. I appreciate that you care about the less fortunate. I'm sure you gave them all of your extra tax refund, since you liberals think the Government should have kept it and redistributed it anyway. At least you got to choose which needy people got it, right?

Your data does not take into account the lower overall productivity and investment by the upper income people that will occur, and get worse and worse the closer to absolute Communism you go. That IS what you are advocating, you realize. Also, your sources give no evidence that your idea will work. We have seen many sources here showing that communism doesn't work.
Wow, how wrong are you? I own 8 businesses, going on 9 next year. I am independently wealthy and do not require working. However I pay my employees very well. If they are happy, that happiness moves to my customers and in turn generates more cash. I could have easily built myself to a point now where I would be very very wealthy, but I am comfortable, aside from doing the books and working on new inventions. My business model has worked very well for me and obviously my employees enjoy it because I have very low turn over rate. I run my businesses on a 60% to 40% distribution of dividends where 60% goes to my employees. The fiscal responsibility for this wealth distribution should be in the hands of the employer. Anyway, since you are already claiming I am a liberal, which you are obviously misinformed, I can see there is no convincing you otherwise so we are at an impass.
Tiny is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:14 PM #77
SlingerXL
Stands to reason
 
SlingerXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
SlingerXL is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
What do your businesses do?
SlingerXL is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:21 PM #78
Tiny (Banned)
The Real Tiny
 
Tiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Land of Liars
 has been a member for 10 years
I own paintball businesses that include teh retail Gunslingers Paintball which is tech services and retail. I also have a company that invents new paintball products. I also own a security company that designs ergonomic based security systems, I also design Big and Tall Sporting Goods, Less than lethal weaponry and tactical training products, which is my main business - Tactical Training Products, LLC is my head corporation. Then I also sell firearms and design tactical web gear. I am also opening a paintball field that will set the bar higher on what a paintball field should be and turning into a chain, starting next year. For the most part as a job, I do the books for my companies tinker with new inventions and write business plans.
Tiny is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:30 PM #79
The Dread Pirate
Warning: Choking Hazard
 
The Dread Pirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The High Seas
The Dread Pirate is a Supporting Member
Saying poor people cant get ahead today is bull****. My mom's family grew up in a poor nieghborhood in the Bronx. My grandmother raised my mom and her two brothers to value hard work and an education.

All three kids ended up going to college. My mom went to med school and became a doctor. Her older brother became an engineer and ened up helping to design those nifty bomb scanners at the airport. He lives pretty comfortably in San Diego now and owns his own consulting firm. My mom's younger brother went to *community college* begged his way into a job at Smith-Barney working as an assistant to some broker. He worked his way up the ladder and went back to school to get a better education. He became the chairman of the board of Lehman Brothers in 1996 and is worth a nine figure amount. All of them grew up poor. All of them paid their own way. None of them got any help except from eachother.
__________________
I am going to become rich and famous when I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.
The Dread Pirate is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:36 PM #80
Tiny (Banned)
The Real Tiny
 
Tiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Land of Liars
 has been a member for 10 years
Well number 1, I didn't say all, I was referring to the majority who do not get teh opportunities. Number 2, I am not saying hand-outs I am saying distributing the wealth more evenly across teh employees, number 3 what do you do for a living, or what do you plan on doing? Ask most people and they say "get a good job" entrepreneurs are a rare breed and the ones who claim profit. Most have started by assuring happy employees through proper compansation and the power corrupts them and greed sets in and you get a standard American corporation.
Tiny is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:42 PM #81
The Dread Pirate
Warning: Choking Hazard
 
The Dread Pirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The High Seas
The Dread Pirate is a Supporting Member
That wasnt directed twards you Tiny. I respect your business theories since they are well founded and I agree with them for the most part.
__________________
I am going to become rich and famous when I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.
The Dread Pirate is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:44 PM #82
Tiny (Banned)
The Real Tiny
 
Tiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Land of Liars
 has been a member for 10 years
Oh then I retract my statement for you, but the rest of you, so there!

source: http://www.youareanidiotifyouneedone.com
Tiny is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:47 PM #83
renegade8
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
No No No! I'm sorry if minimum wage earners do not have the motivation to become as wealthy as these CEO's! They DO have the incentive. Capitalism is for the strong and the brave. Your observations are extremely obtuse.
how can a minimum wage earner ever be as wealthy as a ceo? I don't think everyone should have equal pay, that's impossible, but the workers make the company and should get paid more for their work. You talk about motivation, so what company are you the ceo of then? I'm curious, because if your not a ceo then you must not be motivated right. Bah your argument is so laughable it hurts. In the perfect capitalism world there is only high paid ceo's right?

Quote:

These multi-millionaires employee thousands and thousands of people. If you invented the wheel, would you want every one of your workers to get just as much as you do? I don't believe so. It is YOUR idea!
So if the thousands and thousands of people said I'm on strike where would the company and people be...nowhere. I actually believe in paying people better salaries, keeps the loyalty higher and the turn around lower.

Quote:

Realize that you are speaking from a helpless point of view. You are degrading capitalism to the point where you actually believe it is extremely flawed. For that, I wonder if you will ever expoit capitalism for all it is offered.
It's not a helpless point of view, it's reality. If you can't see the flaws, look a little deaper. I'm in belief that capitalism is the better system, but somewhere in it there are some problems. Whether it's the execution, the government, the people I don't know but somehow it's just not right right now.
renegade8 is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 01:55 PM #84
The Dread Pirate
Warning: Choking Hazard
 
The Dread Pirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The High Seas
The Dread Pirate is a Supporting Member
Alright, I am going to put this very simply. Socialism, communism, idiotism, etc is INHUMAN and will NEVER work. Humans by nature compete, be it in sports, life, jobs, etc. If there is no competition and no motivation or rewards to those who succeed, then there will be no progress. Capitalism and free trade are the basis for progress and success. There will always be a need for it, it will always exist. The only people who complain are those who cant win at the game.
__________________
I am going to become rich and famous when I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.
The Dread Pirate is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump