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View Poll Results: <MARQUEE>Do you think Kerry can handle this nations defense?</MARQUEE>
Yes 7 21.21%
No 23 69.70%
Not sure 3 9.09%
don't care 0 0%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:31 AM #64
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Both Clinton and Bush are at fault to a degree. Ex-Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelic (of 911 Commission fame) changed intelligence policies during Clinton's Administration by putting firewalls between the FBI and CIA to prevent them from sharing information. For instance the FBI learned that terrorists were training to fly planes in Arizona but that info was not passed onto the CIA because of these firewalls. Therefore 2 and 2 weren't put together and the worst terrorist strike on this country happened and 3,000 are now dead.
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:40 AM #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by insanity15
But if were a murder case, its quite clear to see who would be convicted. And no not Bush.
Quote:
Originally posted by elTwitcho
Read the whole quote you ****ing idiot. If you had more than the intelect of the average 8 year old you'd be able to do simple logic, like connecting ideas.

The idea of planes being used for terrorist attacks was common since the CLinton administration

PLUS

Knowledge that an Al Quaeda attack against american financial institutions was imminemt in August 2001

= Bush knew that Al Quaeda was going to attack and that planes were a possible vector of attack. The fact that Clinton knew of the possibility of an attack using planes means NOTHING without also knowing an attack was imminent in the near future.
Lock him up.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:37 PM #66
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Quote:
Read the whole quote you ****ing idiot. If you had more than the intelect of the average 8 year old you'd be able to do simple logic, like connecting ideas.

The idea of planes being used for terrorist attacks was common since the CLinton administration

PLUS

Knowledge that an Al Quaeda attack against american financial institutions was imminemt in August 2001

= Bush knew that Al Quaeda was going to attack and that planes were a possible vector of attack. The fact that Clinton knew of the possibility of an attack using planes means NOTHING without also knowing an attack was imminent in the near future.

You're not going to get another response from me. I can't tell if you're actually THAT stupid or just playing along to try and derail the argument but your inability to use even basic logic means any discussion is wasted on you. You're done dude, the 9-11 commission and every sane and rational person in the country can see that Bush ****ed up but you're such a blatant aplogist you can't see past the "go go bush" banner you've got taped across your eyes. It's people like you that are the reason democracy doesn't work. People that will not look at the issues and decide which party works for them but people who will side with a party and then try to twist the issues to fit with their candidate. Stop pretending you're going to have a discussion when all you're going to do is make up your mind from the outset and try to reinforce your decision.

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Old 08-18-2004, 12:44 PM #67
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didn't know that drake, what was the rationale for putting up that firewall?
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:52 PM #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyDrake
Both Clinton and Bush are at fault to a degree. Ex-Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelic (of 911 Commission fame) changed intelligence policies during Clinton's Administration by putting firewalls between the FBI and CIA to prevent them from sharing information. For instance the FBI learned that terrorists were training to fly planes in Arizona but that info was not passed onto the CIA because of these firewalls. Therefore 2 and 2 weren't put together and the worst terrorist strike on this country happened and 3,000 are now dead.
The CIA does not have the authority to conduct operations on u.s. soil.
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:50 PM #69
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I'm curious if anyone can point out what good the Homeland Securty Bureau has done. Not saying it's bad, just curious what it's done.
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Old 08-19-2004, 10:50 AM #70
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It invented a color code system that still needs an explination, that counts for something right?

In all seriousness they are leading the branches of the government that are in charge of security (FBI, Secret Service, etc.) so tehy are really just a coordination group.
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Old 08-19-2004, 11:39 AM #71
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That's what I thought.
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Old 08-19-2004, 11:44 AM #72
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Don't forget it gives more Americans jobs!
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Old 08-19-2004, 01:04 PM #73
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At tax payer's expense.
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Old 08-19-2004, 01:06 PM #74
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Woah, sounds like socialism to me!
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Old 08-19-2004, 01:14 PM #75
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Meanwhile, as we debate whether 9/11 was Clinton's fault or not, the terrorists are moving foreword with plans for killing us.
We are weak as we are divided, and our only resolve is to point fingers at each other while screaming "my guy is better!"
What bothers me, is that in the almost three years since 9-11, the U.S. government has spent $500 million on port security.
The U.S. government spends $100 million EVERY DAY on operations in Iraq.
Let me repeat that: EVERY DAY!
That tells me just how seriously the U.S. government takes the threat of terror attacks in America.
Prepare yourself for another very bad day in America, folks. Don't fall into the logical fallacy of thinking that because Bush is bad ***, Al-Qaeda is no threat. Bush is incompetent and his advisors are guilty of piss-poor strategic thinking. Those of us in the world who love life, who would favor civilization above anarchy, must unite to face down this evil, and exterminate it wherever it is found.
Getting rid of Bush will only highlight the shortcomings of the next guy down the line.
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Old 08-19-2004, 04:50 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade
Meanwhile, as we debate whether 9/11 was Clinton's fault or not, the terrorists are moving foreword with plans for killing us.
We are weak as we are divided, and our only resolve is to point fingers at each other while screaming "my guy is better!"
9/11 was neither Clinton nor Bush's fault. It is well known that they are moving forward, and so are we! Weak and divided? Weak by what standard? Please, humor me. Divided? Well, politically, sure... It is an election year.

Don't have such a pessimistic view about the United States. Do you believe we are sitting back and waiting for another attack? I worked on Wall Street for much of this summer and in the past couple weeks you have absolutely NO idea how much security has been stepped up! Imagine walking through airport security twice AND getting a personal ID badge just to go into ONE building for 10 minutes.

But, it's ok, we are 'weak'.
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Old 08-19-2004, 05:26 PM #77
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Old 08-20-2004, 08:38 AM #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlingerXL
I'm curious if anyone can point out what good the Homeland Securty Bureau has done. Not saying it's bad, just curious what it's done.
One of the first tasks The Department of Homeland Security was to provide data for the "pattern of global terrorism" report which were compiled by various state departments.
When finished the report stated the number of "acts of terror" were the lowest since 1969.
Intitial reports stated that we were winning the "War on Terror" but then someone took a closer look, the data were wrong.
After the data which formed the foundation of the report were corrected it showed that terrorism actually increased.
No QA/QC on the war on terror apparently, your tax dollars at work.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/10/powell.terror.report/
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:01 AM #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
9/11 was neither Clinton nor Bush's fault. It is well known that they are moving forward, and so are we! Weak and divided? Weak by what standard? Please, humor me. Divided? Well, politically, sure... It is an election year.

Don't have such a pessimistic view about the United States. Do you believe we are sitting back and waiting for another attack? I worked on Wall Street for much of this summer and in the past couple weeks you have absolutely NO idea how much security has been stepped up! Imagine walking through airport security twice AND getting a personal ID badge just to go into ONE building for 10 minutes.

But, it's ok, we are 'weak'.

Please enlighten me as to how the middle east time and time again has shown that religious ideology, sense of nationalism, and downright stubborness has often times defeated even the mightiest of military actions. They fight with ideology while we fight with weaponry, and the recruitment halls for Al-queda are filling up fast. So do I believe we are sitting on our heels? NO, not at all, we are spending 100 million dollars a day to be in Iraq. Do I think we are going about it the wrong way? YES.
Look at the policy we have had in the Middle east since the 1950's, therein lies the problem, policy of rash intervention. Unfortunately, even if Kerry is elected we will only move on further with flawed policy which will make us lose in the long run. Of which the concept of "long run" doesn't exist in most Americans minds.
We are weak as we are divided, we grow weaker everyday.
Everyday, al queda finds a new recruit we lose, and we are giving them many reasons to join extremist organizations.
Imagine what the world would be like with full international cooperation and willingness to move foreword instead of pointing fingers, unilateral operation and blaming other factions for everything. This is the bit of liberal in me, pessimistic idea that the we will never act like we are world citizens, and until that day we will always work against ourselves in a self-perpetuating cycle of violence and corruption under the guise of nationalism.
9/11 was a time when the world could have united, but we let petty groups drive a wedge between peoples emotions.
An example is this:
Blame Islam: After 9/11, many people said that the militant factions of Islam had "hijacked" their otherwise peaceful religion for their own nefarious purposes. I feel that, here in America, The extreme right has done the same thing and "hijacked" Christianity. They have gotten people so polarized on a few issues (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, etc), that those people ignore everything else that the party stands for (tax breaks, fiscal responsiblility, smaller government, cutting social programs, invading sovereign countries, etc).
It's just as easy to see this happening in our own country.
The Republican ensnaring of fundamentalist Christians has been a pretty fascinating thing to watch, starting back in the early 1980s with the Moral Majority, remember that?
Heck, Jimmy Carter was the most openly religious president in recent times (unlike Reagan, Carter made decisions by asking WWJD, not conservative ideology).
And Carter was crucified for it by the right. He was considered to be a weak pansy.
Take a look at the Catholic arguments of today:

"John Kerry should be kicked out of Catholicism because he supports ABORTION RIGHTS!"

"But doesn't George Bush support the death penalty, which is also condemned?"

"Oh shut up, liberal!"

Typical.....weak....divided.
Until we realize we are citizens of the world, we will be against ourselves, I sincerely hope you are humored.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:03 AM #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
9/11 was neither Clinton nor Bush's fault.
I do applaud you to see past the false rhetoric and admit that 9/11 is OUR problem, not the problem or result of politicians.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:09 AM #81
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So false, so false.

That is not what Jimmy Carter did in the least. No President has referred to God to make decisions that stand on a morally, secular level.

To be under the notion that right-wingers are the source of our problems of dissent is the biggest source of disgust I have found in your past two posts.

Essentially, what is there to combat in your posts? It is simply you thinking that you are right about something, but you aren't. This political division is simply brought about by partistans. So why pigeonhole conservatives? Liberals are just as much to blame.

Please don't be na´ve in your posts, and have an argument that contains a source or something. Because as far as I'm concerned all you have been doing is bashing the right for being [bad] Christians.

Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade
I do applaud you to see past the false rhetoric and admit that 9/11 is OUR problem, not the problem or result of politicians.
Of course. I am not an ideologue. I'm not even proud that I have "seen past" the "False rhetoric". It's simply called being and staying informed. I need no plaudits for that.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:42 AM #82
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It's easy to cry false without giving reason why. It's always sad to see this tactic at work.
Carter was a very openly religious man and was one of the first to fuse his religious and political beliefs. Jerry Falwell's (predominately Republican) moral majority was founded to drive a wedge between Jimmy Carter and the Republicans.


Read up on Carter for a little more insight.
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm

"Carter's religious beliefs also struck a responsive chord in large numbers of Americans. Other American leaders have felt deep religious convictions, but none had ever before been so successful in integrating those beliefs into a political program. This moral approach was refreshing to many, although others tended to distrust a politician who claimed he would "never tell a lie."


Quote:
Essentially, what is there to combat in your posts? It is simply you thinking that you are right about something, but you aren't. This political division is simply brought about by partistans. So why pigeonhole conservatives? Liberals are just as much to blame.

Please don't be na´ve in your posts, and have an argument that contains a source or something. Because as far as I'm concerned all you have been doing is bashing the right for being [bad] Christians
You have just countered my argument with the same tactic that you complain about.

I'm done doing your homework for the day.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:50 AM #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade


"Carter's religious beliefs also struck a responsive chord in large numbers of Americans. Other American leaders have felt deep religious convictions, but none had ever before been so successful in integrating those beliefs into a political program. This moral approach was refreshing to many, although others tended to distrust a politician who claimed he would "never tell a lie."


I'm done doing your homework for the day.
I'm extremely familiar with Carter, as well as every other President in our history. Carter was MORAL with his politics, not religious. If you can read in between the lines of your source, you could see that. A Christian man who wanted to integrate religion into politics would NOT have been elected, and that's the absolute bottom line. This is why only one Roman Catholic has been elected President (Kennedy).


Jimmy Carter was much different than the normal religious President, and in the link below, you will understand why!


My Homework
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:07 AM #84
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My problem is I question 'evangelicals' as much as any right winger worth his salt would question a "liberal".

Here is my gripe, Christian Republicans have a definate platform and accept Jesus as the savior/almighty. But lets look at what the Republican Party stands for:
- Capital Punishment (Jesus died by captial punishment)
- Cronyism and favortism towards the rich (Jesus said the rich are as likely to get into heaven as a camel through a needle's eye)
- Intolerance of and prejudice towards the heterodox (which goes against Jesus' teaching of loving ones neighbor as oneself)
- Dont even start on compassion for the poor, love thy enemy...etc.

Even the most "tell everyone about Jesus," evangelizing, self-righteous followers of the word of the lord are also almost all for the death penalty. Most ironic thing ever.
I'm thinking that both sides of that argument are a mass of raging morons. Most death penalty advocates are against abortion. Most abortion advocates are against the death penalty.

Thanks for the Carter link, it is good, and I have bookmarked it....perhaps it is you that has helped with my homework for today.
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