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Old 08-08-2004, 08:07 PM #22
NorCalBaller88
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Quote:
Originally posted by ipoppedtimmy
I'd say he's a little bit more determined , but portayed as a whole lot worse
Well no sh*t he is more determined. I would have to say that producing a whole movie on his beliefs is a pretty damned determined.
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Old 08-08-2004, 08:08 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlingerXL
Michael Moore = O'Rielly of left. Nothing more, nothing less.
HAHA

You keep digging yourself deeper.. Do you know anything about politics?
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Old 08-08-2004, 09:17 PM #24
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Quote:
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i agree on almost every one of those qoutes. a large potion of americans are so stubborn, and ignorant it frustrates me to a point i cant describe
I agreed with all of the quotes about Americans being dumb. It's true, we are the stupidest, most ignorant people on the planet. Bush STILL claims that Iraq was involved with Al-quida EVEN THOUGH THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE. NONE. How stupid is he? Actually, it's quite smart. You see, if you repeat a lie enough times around stupid people, they will start to think it is true. Look what's happening, people use 9/11 as a means to justify the war with Iraq. Well America, Iraq had nothing to do with Iraq and Bush is just using terrorism to his advantage for the next election. He is scaring people so much about terrorism that they start to think that he is the only person on the earth that understands that terrorism is a threat and that he is the only person that can stop it. Terrorism was JUST as bad when Clinton was in office, and you never heard anything from the news about it, and nobody ever worried about it. Bush has exaggerated the terrosim threat, and anybody who denies that is just plain ignorant.
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Old 08-09-2004, 12:49 AM #25
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"Iraq had nothing to do with Iraq "
Sorry just had to point out your error.

Mugatu, you are dead on about this fear-mongerring that has gone on under the Bush administration. Tonight I watched the film "Lord of the Flies". I would suggest to anyone you see this film(or read the book), it really helps you understand mob mentality and the effect of fear on groups. Many other books - 1984, animal farm - also help you understand the kind of mentality that can really ruin a society.

Living in fear is not the way to live. You dont need to be watching the cabke news all the time to be up to date. Pick up a paper, that medium doesent need to be so sensationalistic, so it generally falls closer to the truth that visual media. The analogy of Moore being the O'reilly of the left is reasonably accurate. I, as someone who falls on the left side of the spectrum, really despise O'reilly and much of what he stands for, so I can see how some would hate Moore. But where I disagree based on ideology, many of those who hate Moore do so out of ignorance or falsehoods. Get your facts together before bringing your case to the table. That little flash says nothing incriminating about Moore. The best quote I can think from that is "Since September 11, the Bush Administration has used that tragic event as a justification to rip up our constitution and our civil liberties. And I honestly believe that [with] one or two September 11's martial law will be declared in our country and we're itching towards a police state". The next quote is also accurate. Paraphrasing - The patriot act is to our country as "Mein Kampf" was to Germanny, noone acted and look what happened. Any book about dystopian future - 1984 being the best - will show you the methods by which a society becomes a police state and much of what we have begun to do seems to be the preliminaries. You have to really think about this. Is the feeling of security worth you liberties, when the reason you felt unsafe in the first place is because it was conventient for the government to have you feel that way? I think not. This fear-mongering must stop in order for America to move into the future.
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Old 08-09-2004, 09:13 AM #26
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He is completely right... America is just full of fat stupid slobs (Bush won didn't he?). If you looked at it from the rights point of view.. most of that stuff would make sense.
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Old 08-09-2004, 10:51 AM #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mag Master 21
HAHA

You keep digging yourself deeper.. Do you know anything about politics?
Although I disagree with his comment and feel that Moore is far more dangerous, in Slinger's defense, he does know his fair share of politics and even though we disagree on a number of topics it is good to have someone else on the board who has at least somewhat thought about his position on a lot of these issues. I've certainly seen him contribute more to the boards so far than you have.
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Old 08-10-2004, 11:46 PM #28
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If i ever meet Michael Moore in person there will be some serious *** wooping
Yea he sure will whoop your ***.
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Old 08-11-2004, 06:00 AM #29
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And then eat you.
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Old 08-11-2004, 09:21 AM #30
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opinions are like a$$holes everyone's got one. Just because someone has different one than you doesn't make them stupid. Now ignorant yes I agree with you there are too many people living here who don't give a damn what goes on in their own country let alone everywhere else and that is a terrible shame. The politicians on BOTH sides count on these people being clueless and in the dark. They know these people listen to quick sound bites and 10 second mentions on the evening news for their information.

The fear mongering happens on both spectrums too, take for instance the Democrats strike fear in the hearts of elder people by saying the Republicans want to steal their Social Security. That charge is false, improving it does not mean they want to take it away this tactic has been used in elections for decades. Another one is they keep telling the "working poor" and the middle class that the rich/wealthy people want to shift the majority of the tax burden onto them. This is a misnomer the top 25% earners are paying the lion's share of the nations taxes (almost 90%). They don't want to shift any taxes on anyone but they do want a system that is more fair to everyone. Many of these top earners make $200,000 or more, these people are the small business owners who employ the majority of the nations workforce. Increasing taxes on them is a job killer and bad for our economy.

The Patriot Act: I too am not a big fan of this, I can understand why we are using it because our greatest weakness is our open society. What I don't like is how they are using it to hunt down drug dealers. It should only be used for it's original purpose of tracking down terrorists operating in this country and that is all. The powers of the Patriot Act are vast and great but they cannot be used until law enforcement authorities provide evidence to a judge showing him that the suspect in question is in fact involved in terrorist activities. Only then when the judge is throughly convinced he will sign a warrant allowing the use of the Patriot Act.. So they can't go into a library and demand a list of books that we the innocent public checked out for no reason.

I don't think the Republicans are using the war on terror for political gain in fact it is hurting them, it's giving their opposition plenty of ammo to use against them. It's my feeling the defense of this country should be a non-political issue, 911 happened and can never happen again that is why I am voting for Bush and not Kerry. I know what Bush is going to do and Kerry worries me I really don't have a clear picture of what he would do and I think many Americans are with me on this.
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Old 08-11-2004, 10:39 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mag Master 21
HAHA

You keep digging yourself deeper.. Do you know anything about politics?


I've read almost every one of those quotes in the original transcript. Any time you quote somebody it WILL be out of context. If I quoted Oprah right now, it would be out of context. The fact of the matter is that Moore said those things, and he meant it. He clearly wants to appeal to other countries (Britain/Canada), so why doesn't he move there? If he hates how our government is being run, get out.

He'll have to put up with it for 4 more years!
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Old 08-11-2004, 10:46 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlingerXL
Michael Moore = O'Rielly of left. Nothing more, nothing less.
as far as general stance...perhaps! but in terms of ability to debate, Moore shows what a moron he really is, Bill "O" on the other, regardless of how you feel about his political alignment, is very intelligent...and he won't hesitate to let you know that! :-)
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Old 08-11-2004, 10:54 AM #33
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Bill O'Reilly does NOT lie, he does NOT spin the facts (as a matter of facf, that's what his show is all about).

O'Reilly is the conservative foil that Moore wishes he could have as much respect as. O'Reilly does NOT need to spin the facts or create false impression.

As a long-time viewer of The O'Reilly Factor, I'll tell you honestly that he DOES denounce Bush on certain administrative aspects and DOES appraise Kerry for his. Just because a man is conservative and on TV, doesn't make him Michael Moore.
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Old 08-11-2004, 11:00 AM #34
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Cool

There is no such thing as no spin on shows like that. Maybe he doens't alter the facts, but he does only show the facts that agree with his point of view. He doesn't spend his time defending his opinions, he spends it saying them.
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Old 08-11-2004, 11:03 AM #35
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He debates very often. So, yes, he WILL show facts that he agrees with.

When he simply talks about what goes on in the news, he tries to bring information from around the spectrum.
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Old 08-11-2004, 12:09 PM #36
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"He clearly wants to appeal to other countries (Britain/Canada), so why doesn't he move there? If he hates how our government is being run, get out."

Your deciding this from the 2 quotes in the flash, or from general impressions of him? Is he supposed to have supreme allegiance to the US? Id always figured it was alright to criticize the government and society, but maybe I was wrong....

Westopher
"but he does only show the facts that agree with his point of view. He doesn't spend his time defending his opinions, he spends it saying them."

Obviosly... when you debate, do you ever argue against yourself? Unless your position is an invincible one: "The holocaust happened", then you generally show facts that agree with you. However the second part it bad. Debate involves putting your ideas out, listenining to the other guys, both parties attacking the others statements, and then both defending them. If you simply keep throwing out new things and disregard anything that isnt consistant, its much less of a debate.

"When he simply talks about what goes on in the news, he tries to bring information from around the spectrum."

Thats just not true. As a statement of a fact: Fox news is conservative. If you EVER listen to a debate on that show(I will admit that O'reilly is better than the other peeps on the show at actually debating rather than just hearing what he wants to hear) they listen for small things they can attack and then discredit them based on that. I listened to the lady (Greta something?) interview George Carlin, and she cut him off many times, never responding to what he was saying. Interviews like that are bull**** and dont belong on television.

All news is spun one way or another. News agencies like the BBC are exceptional at keeping it to a minimum, whereas FoxNews or Al-Jazeera put generally large spins on all stories. I have gotten friends of mine who are conservative to admit they watch it because it tells them what they want to hear. Its part of the same reason I enjoyed Farenheit 9/11... its what I take as true(not all of it, im not a conspiracy nut or anything)
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Old 08-11-2004, 03:05 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prodigul
P8le Dricmade
"He clearly wants to appeal to other countries (Britain/Canada), so why doesn't he move there? If he hates how our government is being run, get out."

Your deciding this from the 2 quotes in the flash, or from general impressions of him? Is he supposed to have supreme allegiance to the US? Id always figured it was alright to criticize the government and society, but maybe I was wrong....
All news is spun one way or another. News agencies like the BBC are exceptional at keeping it to a minimum, whereas FoxNews or Al-Jazeera put generally large spins on all stories. I have gotten friends of mine who are conservative to admit they watch it because it tells them what they want to hear. Its part of the same reason I enjoyed Farenheit 9/11... its what I take as true(not all of it, im not a conspiracy nut or anything)
Oh please... To compare Al-Jazeera to Fox News is like comparing Moore to Barbara Walters.

It is quite well-known that Moore has very anti-American sentiment. He doesn't like Kerry, he doesn't like Bush, he doens't like our Government. He will never be satisfied and he strives to upset any intelligent American. He makes mockumentaries to appeal to the more ignorant groups and generally has no respect for politicians.

Forget 2 quotes from the flash, I have read tons of information on Moore (including one of his books). His impressions about America are frightening.
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Old 08-11-2004, 04:39 PM #38
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Al Jazeera satisfies Arab nationalism, whereas FoxNews satisfies American nationalism.

Does it matter that Moore is anti-american? I dont really think so. His movies are made to be mainstream documentaries, balancing the amount of facts with entertainment(renting ice-cream truck and reading patriot act, for instance). Yes, to the unintelligent/ignorant, they may be dangerous - painting a picture more negative than it is. But many of the average americans get all their news from the major networks, so his films provide balance to the generally conservative viewpoints expressed in those news sources.

He isnt there to "upset any intelligent American"... the uneducated(If you equate education with intelligence - not always true, imo) do not read his books. He just presents one interpretation of the facts.

Do YOU have any respect for politicians? My choices for politicians seem to always be along the line of the lesser of two evils, rather then "Oh that guy is gonna be the best thing since sliced bread"

On the subject of politicians, how do you think the election will effect terrorism? I lean towards the belief that Bush's hardline approach actually inflames arab hatred for the US and helps in recruitment of potential operatives - but I can certainly see at some level that his policy of invade first ask questions later would cause some level of fear.
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Old 08-11-2004, 05:19 PM #39
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**** bush and this guy.... bring back clintonn!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-11-2004, 05:23 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by P8le Dricmade
Bill O'Reilly does NOT lie, he does NOT spin the facts (as a matter of facf, that's what his show is all about).

lol Thanks for that.
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Old 08-11-2004, 05:24 PM #41
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O'Reilly doesnt spin the facts, huh? Try picking up Al Frankens book, "Liars and the Lying Liars who tell them" he has a whole chapter on The O'Reilly factor, giving examples of when O'Reilly would make up figures in his head about welfare, taxes, etc. Everyone knows O'Reilly is a moron, if he gets someone on his show who knows what hes talking about he tells his producers to cut his mike, yeah sounds like he doesnt need to spin the facts...
I don't have to try picking it up, because I have read it, and I have it in my hand as we speak. Sadly, O'Reilly does NOT make figures up because O'Reilly refuted Franken's statement and backs every single number with a source, always readily available IN FRONT of him.

Don't assume that I am a conservative who does not read liberal books. I made my decision to be conservative based on reading independent, liberal, and conservative material. I have an interest in economics and business, so naturally I am conservatively inclined.

I've read your liberal book, so how about Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom. How about broadening your span of knowledge. What is great about Friedman is that he is not so politically inclined, but speaks so specifically about what WORKS.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lesta
lol Thanks for that.
Your welcome. Just allowing ignorant people to overcome the plague one at a time. (and no, I don't consider democrats ignorant, I consider them as those who dissent my beliefs--which I completely accept)
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Old 08-12-2004, 09:42 AM #42
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I hate people like my grandad who dont like micheal moore becuase hes "biased", ofcourse hes biased he dosnt want to help somone elses argument, hes making his own. He right americans are uninformed and iggnorant. About a year ago when i was on a cruise somewhere in the world, i was speaking to a NY cop and he said to me "where do you live", and i said "New Guinie" and he said "which state is that in??" i didnt laugh i just explained some people do decided to move from countries like USA and Australia to asia and my parents were one of those people. But still i cant beleive he thought it was somewhere in the US.
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