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Old 08-05-2004, 10:22 PM #1
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With all this **** going on with Kerry and Bush...

why dont we just vote Nader in 04?






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Old 08-05-2004, 10:56 PM #2
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I'd vote for nader if he had an actual shot at winning.
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Old 08-06-2004, 04:09 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by hiaseas
I'd vote for nader if he had an actual shot at winning.
just if your vote and your future votes are left up to who you think is the popular canidate to win, IMHO, for the love of god, don't vote.
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Old 08-06-2004, 07:13 AM #4
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in633329.shtml

I think if you read that article - you might see how the rest of the world views the president

Mr. Bush is the most disliked American president abroad in living memory, perhaps in all of American history.
And contrary to the mindset of some sheeple, The US must remain in a positive light to the rest of the world. We will never be as great as we could be without the rest of the world.
Any other election year, you would find me out supporting third party candidates. In fact, I supported and voted for Nader in the last Presidential election. But this year is too important. The last four years have been horriffic for civil rights, corruption, spending, and constitutional freedoms in this country. George Bush and his administration simply must be oustered. So I, and many others, have been forced to swallow a bitter pill and side temporarily with the Democratic Party.
I'm not happy to do it, and I have not made this decision lightly. But it is a truth that the Democratic Party is the only possible alternative this year to another four years of national shame and humiliation. We have sided with the Democrats, as I've said before, not to choose the lesser of two evils, but to fight the greater of two evils.
We must always stay vigilant. The enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. We can fight at their side, but we can never turn our backs on them. Once this fight has ended, I will happily return to fighting for a viable third and hopefully fourth alternative.

Here's a nice quote from yesterday:
(I think a couple wires got crossed up there somewhere)

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH "MY administration will never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people."

WTF?!?!?
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:01 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by hiaseas
I'd vote for nader if he had an actual shot at winning.
Don't think of it as Nader having a chance. Think of it as who's winning New York.
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:43 AM #6
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we need to get everyone in PBnation convinced that they should vote for Nader and the start a huge as state wide tour for him....



Nader Tour 04.... Member #1
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:04 AM #7
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I'm a libertarian and I'm choosing the lesser of the two evils and voting for the republicans this year. Bush is more closely aligned to my philosophy than Kerry is but not by much. Regardless of who wins it will not affect how I choose to live my life, if a president passes some policies that are important to my agenda good, if they don't I not going to go over the deep end and become a ranting fool and calling for their head. Personally both parties are corrupt and have sold their souls to special interests groups but I think the democrats would do more harm than good especially in this point in time but that is my opinion.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:21 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in633329.shtml

I think if you read that article - you might see how the rest of the world views the president

Mr. Bush is the most disliked American president abroad in living memory, perhaps in all of American history.
i guess unlike you i vote for the president i like instead of who a bunch of spineless bed wetters in europe think. Europe is in the biggest state of relative disrepair the world has ever seen. California has a bigger GDP than most of those countries. France goes on and on about personal liberties but they dont even need a permit to search your house. The europeans cannot stand that a colony which was once their ***** is now so strong and successful and we've saved the world twice.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:25 AM #9
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This all leads to my point in that I believe the US should stop funding foriegn countries and worry about our own issues.

Just stop with it. France, they don't like the way we do buisiness fine, stop sending them money.

The rest of europe doesn't like us? Fine, withdraw all troops from our bases over there, stop all foriegn aid to those countries.

Asia/pacific/Africa doesn't like us? Fine, same thing as europe. Withdraw all of our troups from around the world, close all of our bases, fortify our borders and take care of our own problems and citizens and just give the rest of 'em the finger.

Cause quite frankly, what in the blue **** has any country in recent history done to help us?

And don't give me the 'coallition in Iraq' bull****. Look at the numbers and tell me who is carrying the brunt of that work.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:43 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by atticus_finch
i guess unlike you i vote for the president i like instead of who a bunch of spineless bed wetters in europe think. Europe is in the biggest state of relative disrepair the world has ever seen. California has a bigger GDP than most of those countries. France goes on and on about personal liberties but they dont even need a permit to search your house. The europeans cannot stand that a colony which was once their ***** is now so strong and successful and we've saved the world twice.
The world will be a messed up place until we realize that we are world citizens.

Europe is in the biggest state of relative disrepair......ahem...sources? (which will then be refuted as biased sources of course)

spineless bed wetters? I thought the UK was in the coalition of the willing? SO we went to war backed by a bunch of spineless bed wetters! No wonder it turned out the way it has.

The europeans cannot stand that a colony which was once their ***** is now so strong and successful and we've saved the world twice
Pic or shenanigans.....argue with fact not feelings, but I feel that you would be wrong on both accounts on this one.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:47 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade

The europeans cannot stand that a colony which was once their ***** is now so strong and successful and we've saved the world twice
Pic or shenanigans.....argue with fact not feelings, but I feel that you would be wrong on both accounts on this one.

...I thought it was common knowledge that the allies in WWII were getting thier respective ***** handed to them on all fronts until after the US entered the war...

Oh yeah, we ended up walking away with that one.

Pretty much the same story with WWI.
I appologize I'm not getting into to much 'hard facts' for you on this one because you should have learned those in any history class you may have taken in HS/College...

And as far as the UK being in the 'willing coalition' yeah they are...but all they're really doing is providing logistical support and as a matter of fact, they're not in a combative role over there. For that matter we've carried the load for the world time and time again only to get absolutely NO gratitude from the rest of the world.

The USA does nothing in a situation, we get **** on. The USA goes in and kicks *** we get **** on. It's a cycle that's been going on for years...see my previous post as to what I personally think we should do about it.
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:59 AM #12
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Take it easy guys Redford is a good guy, he's a teammate of mine

Redford long time no see: Mike from the Ravens
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:06 AM #13
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I'm not saying anything bad about Redford, in fact I don't hold anything against anyone here...I just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:17 AM #14
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I know I just want to keep it friendly, I mean we are just debating over the internet and we would never insult each other in person. But seriously Redford is a smart guy and a damn good paintball player.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:18 AM #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by crucial_fiction
...I thought it was common knowledge that the allies in WWII were getting thier respective ***** handed to them on all fronts until after the US entered the war...

Oh yeah, we ended up walking away with that one.

Pretty much the same story with WWI.
I appologize I'm not getting into to much 'hard facts' for you on this one because you should have learned those in any history class you may have taken in HS/College...

And as far as the UK being in the 'willing coalition' yeah they are...but all they're really doing is providing logistical support and as a matter of fact, they're not in a combative role over there. For that matter we've carried the load for the world time and time again only to get absolutely NO gratitude from the rest of the world.

The USA does nothing in a situation, we get **** on. The USA goes in and kicks *** we get **** on. It's a cycle that's been going on for years...see my previous post as to what I personally think we should do about it.
Yeah and we wouldn't even be a country without France's help. *******, stop argueing that a long time ago when things were really different we helped Europe and they owe us a favor.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:20 AM #16
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Hey now mike! Hope all is well on your end of the things.

Crucial fiction, I would agree with the argue for the sake of arguing part.
For the rest....of course....I would have to disagree.

(refering to WWII) Oh yeah, we ended up walking away with that one.

If by 300,000 American deaths over the course of six years is your idea of "walking away from that one" it is truly a sad day. Pay attention in history class from now on, if you have any family members who were in WWII, talk to them. There was no fun to be had over there.
Truly a cold morbid time for the world, yet you feel we walked away with it.

The USA does nothing in a situation, we get **** on. The USA goes in and kicks *** we get **** on. It's a cycle that's been going on for years...see my previous post as to what I personally think we should do about it.


If we're going to get crapped on either way, you think we could do it without killing so many people.
Bush is bad for the country.
Yet the people who are actually running the show almost certainly want more of Bush.
Here's my theory:
Since Bush doesn't actually like to 1) go after the terrorists where they live, when we could fight nice little conventional wars (and show daddy that we're better than him, improve profit margins for our friends etc.) instead of, 2) improving relations with other countries (and hold them accountable) to the point that they will significantly help our efforts, 3) stop with the blustery bullcrap cowboy swagger and talk that gives the arabic language news services such excellent material that then makes its way into recruitment materials for terrorist organizations etc.

Bin Laden and Bush, on the whole, were made for each other.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:20 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlingerXL
Yeah and we wouldn't even be a country without France's help. *******, stop argueing that a long time ago when things were really different we helped Europe and they owe us a favor.
So it's different now that we help in damn near EVERY SINGLE world problem ie
Bosnia/Chechnya(sp?)/Afghanistan/the middle east the list goes on and on...but no matter what we do it's ok for the rest of the world to turn thier backs and **** on us?

I don't see how that is right at all.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:29 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade

Crucial fiction, I would agree with the argue for the sake of arguing part.
For the rest....of course....I would have to disagree.

(refering to WWII) Oh yeah, we ended up walking away with that one.

If by 300,000 American deaths over the course of six years is your idea of "walking away from that one" it is truly a sad day. Pay attention in history class from now on, if you have any family members who were in WWII, talk to them. There was no fun to be had over there.
Truly a cold morbid time for the world, yet you feel we walked away with it.

If we're going to get crapped on either way, you think we could do it without killing so many people.
Bush is bad for the country.
Yet the people who are actually running the show almost certainly want more of Bush.
Here's my theory:
Since Bush doesn't actually like to 1) go after the terrorists where they live, when we could fight nice little conventional wars (and show daddy that we're better than him, improve profit margins for our friends etc.) instead of, 2) improving relations with other countries (and hold them accountable) to the point that they will significantly help our efforts, 3) stop with the blustery bullcrap cowboy swagger and talk that gives the arabic language news services such excellent material that then makes its way into recruitment materials for terrorist organizations etc.

Bin Laden and Bush, on the whole, were made for each other.
Ok, now you're putting words into my mouth. Yes, I understand that over 300,000 people died in WWII. Ok, how many people would have died if we wouldn't have come into it? 300,000 for the sake of Millions? I think that is a fair trade off.

Never did I say that it was a cake walk. I know that had to have been one of the hardest things to have gone through in that day and age with out a doubt in my mind.

Now, I just have to ask...where do terrorists live? How do we go straight for them when they are hiding in countries that won't even let us in to find them? It's a lot harder said than done.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:31 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by crucial_fiction
So it's different now that we help in damn near EVERY SINGLE world problem ie
Bosnia/Chechnya(sp?)/Afghanistan/the middle east the list goes on and on...but no matter what we do it's ok for the rest of the world to turn thier backs and **** on us?

I don't see how that is right at all.
Hey bro, I'm with you there. I guess that's the downside of being a world power, everybodys got their hands out.
Hey, compassion to a point. The world needs it.

Take Pakistan for instance. We give them about 3 billion a year in aid. No doubt it's great to have them on our side. (thier nuclear capability could be a big question someday)
We give them this cash, forgive their debts etc. and bend over backword for them.
At the same time we criticise them for not doing enough on the war on terror. We criticise them for not doing the "democratic" thing. Of course this makes them mad and now they harbor ill-will for us. Our back is against the wall here. Either we lose a key ally in the "war on terror" (where the terrorists actually live) or let the fundies take over and go to war with them a couple years down the road.
Either way were getting screwed, yet we continue to forge ahead with the same policy. Intervention is inevitable.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:34 AM #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedfordRenegade
Hey now mike! Hope all is well on your end of the things.
could be better but things are looking up. The company I worked for downsized a couple of weeks ago and I lost my job but I have some good leads on some really good opportunties. Hopefully I will finally get my dream job along with a 10K raise, then I'll be able to buy that BKO i've been wanting.
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Old 08-06-2004, 10:38 AM #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by crucial_fiction
Ok, now you're putting words into my mouth. Yes, I understand that over 300,000 people died in WWII. Ok, how many people would have died if we wouldn't have come into it? 300,000 for the sake of Millions? I think that is a fair trade off.

Never did I say that it was a cake walk. I know that had to have been one of the hardest things to have gone through in that day and age with out a doubt in my mind.

Now, I just have to ask...where do terrorists live? How do we go straight for them when they are hiding in countries that won't even let us in to find them? It's a lot harder said than done.

Your exact words were, "Oh yeah, we walked away with that one."
To me that sounds a bit callous.

How many people would have died if we hadn't intervened?
Hypothetical question, but if the Nazi's took over a vast empire like the mongols did, maybe we'd have to speak Ze' German now.
It simply can't be determined.

As far as finding the terrorsts goes, they caught a couple of them a few hours from my house yesterday, and I don't live in Iraq.
Check this out:
The government is following a very bad strategy in fighting this stuff. When you know you are vulnerable, the first thing you do is shore up your defense, even if it means inconvenience and expense. You don't lash out until you have done all you can to safeguard your home base. What good is chasing shadows in Al-Anbar and the Hindu Kush when you still have your pants down in NYC and San Francisco?

Consider: In the almost three years since 9-11, the U.S. government has spent $500 million on port security.

The U.S. government spends $500 million EVERY FIVE DAYS on operations in Iraq.

Let me repeat that: EVERY FIVE DAYS. In Iraq!

That should tell you just how seriously the U.S. government takes the threat of terror attacks in America, yet they pulled two from right nextdoor to me yesterday.
The dept. of Homeland security is a running joke.
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