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Old 08-14-2004, 09:39 PM #85
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Most effective doesent mean best. Sure it can acheive the most for a nation, but no matter how good the intentions of the leader it is rarely beneficial to the common man. Mousollini didnt make the trains run on time, Lenin didnt bring Peace, Land, and Bread, all dictatorship brings is broken promises and a disenchanted population.
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Old 08-14-2004, 09:44 PM #86
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I'm gonna have to go with Democracy.
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Old 08-14-2004, 10:52 PM #87
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Well if you've ever read Machiavelli, dictatorship with an iron fist does seem very pleasing... In practice however, it tends to be stable but not to the greater people's benefit.

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Old 08-15-2004, 12:39 AM #88
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Dictatorship is by far the most effective way to rule. Read The Prince.
If by effective you mean high producing, then yes. I think most effective would be most people happy.
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Old 08-15-2004, 02:27 PM #89
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I dunno, if the economy is good, wouldn't that usually mean the people are happy?

There's an interview with an economist in the New York Times Magazine today and it says he's predicted the last few elections within 2.5% of the total vote using an economic formula and he syas Bush will win by 57% and nothing else will matter not even the Iraq war.

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Old 08-15-2004, 02:53 PM #90
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Economic formulas are bad for calculating outside factors though. The Iraq war is having a huge effect on Bush's popularity, there's no question about that. Now something like another terrorist attack or more persistant insurgency in Iraq/Afganistan may get people to the point of seeing that Bush's counter terrorism policies are innefective. People will see that the terrorist issue arose under Bush, and being a hardliner about it cant solve the issue.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:18 PM #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prodigul
Economic formulas are bad for calculating outside factors though. The Iraq war is having a huge effect on Bush's popularity, there's no question about that. Now something like another terrorist attack or more persistant insurgency in Iraq/Afganistan may get people to the point of seeing that Bush's counter terrorism policies are innefective. People will see that the terrorist issue arose under Bush, and being a hardliner about it cant solve the issue.
Or they could instill another round of blind patriotism like 9-11 did.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:59 PM #92
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Maybe, but I think atleast some people will see what that has done for the country. It will just show that the post 9/11 security buildup/removal of civil liberties did nothing to prevent terrorism, it just brings us closer to a police state. Id say Al-Queda suceeded the day im under government surveilance when I go to the store for some milk, and it feels like that day will be within the next few years if Bush stays in power.
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:55 PM #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlingerXL
I dunno, if the economy is good, wouldn't that usually mean the people are happy?
Depends, in a 'good' economy there can still be millions of poor people.

Also to use an extreme example, the german enconomy improved massivly under hitler, but i dont think the jews were very happy with the situation. Dictatorships usally have good economies, but people still are not happy, they also usually severly restrict rights. The more individual rights i have the happier i am.
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:38 PM #94
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Actually the economy in Germanny was already on the upswing before the Nazi's took power. One of their main platform was that economy was terrible, when in fact it was better than prewar levels(ww1)
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Old 08-15-2004, 10:29 PM #95
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by 1939, Germany still imported 33% of its required raw materials

government income had been 10 billion Reichsmarks in 1928. In 1939, it stood at 15 billion. However, government spending had increased from 12 billion Reichsmarks in 1928 to over 30 billion in 1939 - a difference of 15 billion Reichsmarks. From 1933 to 1939, the Nazi government always spent more than it earned so that by 1939, government debt stood at over 40 billion Resichsmarks.

Not a very good economy.
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Old 08-15-2004, 11:57 PM #96
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right, good to know i had always thought that people liked the nazis because they fixed the horrible economny germany had due to the verselles treaty. before hitler there was also horrible inflation. at one point 1 dollar was worth 4.2 trillion marks. hitler stabilized this and brought down unemployment. when he came to power in 1933 6 million were unemployed. by 1939 it was down to 300,000. Those figures may be skewed because women were not counted as unemployed. Anyway, much work was created. i did not take into account the defecit, good point.

EDIT: just relized we are getting our info from the same page. i see that someone else knows how to use google.... lol.
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Old 08-16-2004, 01:20 AM #97
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As in my last post im speaking from memory, so Im not using figures. Economy is a complicated beast, but it does tend to have upswings and downswings. Well when the nazis began gathering support it was just after a huge downswing, so naturally people were unhappy(your figures seem about right for the conversion rates). However, when Hitler finally made his rise to power, displacing Hindenberg and calling emergency powers after the burning of the reichstag, the economy was on the upswing. As I had already stated, they exceeded pre-war levels. The Versailles treaty was overtrumped by the nazis in the harm it did to the German people. While it was harsh, it was not paralyzing.

Getting back to the first point, dictatorship does not fix the problems of a nation. Though it does make for some effective military leadership(if you have an adept leader.... Hitler made many military blunders, but many genius moves too such as invading the Rhineland allowing him to consolidate power and gain the trust of the officers) it is overall a poor form of government. I can think of noone I would trust to have absolute control over the nation, as everyone has their faults and weaknesses.

Btw, look to Bismark for an extremely effective leader. Quite Machiavellian.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:59 AM #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by bern
EDIT: just relized we are getting our info from the same page. i see that someone else knows how to use google.... lol.
Haha yes we are. I guess we're both, "Feeling Lucky"

Can you imagine if we actually did assassinate hitler? What would of happened? Goering was second in command and no doubt smarter than Hitler militarily, but he didn't have half the charisma and I don't know if he could keep everyone as united as Hitler did.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:24 PM #99
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It is hard to really speculate as to what would have happened had hitler been assassinated. i guess it depends at what point, if the nazi party was in power, then we would have been screwed if this goering fellow is as militarily smart as you say he is. hitler made some mistakes that allowed the allies to win the war. he could have won it for germany. If they did not have complete control yet they probably woulnt have retained any power.
Quote:
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I can think of noone I would trust to have absolute control over the nation, as everyone has their faults and weaknesses.
I agree, furthermore. I dont trust anyone to have any control over me. not bush not kerry and certainly not congress or the senate.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:36 PM #100
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I HIGHLY doubt Goering would've attacked Russia. That essentially turned the tide of the war. That mean... Concentration Camps for everybody!
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:31 AM #101
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It did indeed. hitler wasnt too bright on that one.
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:11 AM #102
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Well its speculation as to whether Goering would have attacked Russia, but militarily it didnt make sense and was done due to Hitlers ambitions. Were Russia to remained allied with Hitler until say '43 or '45 the tide of the war would have changed drastically. Heck, if Hitler had had launched operation barbarossa a few months earlier to avoid the Russian winter he may have pushed them back enough for their morale to dissapate and he could have focused upon taking care of Great britain.
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:40 PM #103
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Goering was no idiot, Hitler was suffering from paranoia too which couldn't have helped.

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Old 08-17-2004, 08:21 PM #104
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Hitler would have tooken Moscow by Force if it wasnt for that Russian Winter, If he did take Moscow, Russia would have fallen b/c I think the took St. Petersburg and they would simply Slaughter the Goverment officials then just police Russian citys and could have focused on sending soldiers to hold off the Allied soldiers in Western Europe. And if that happened the war would have gone on a little bit longer so then Hitler would have time to do that umm Nuclear Attack upon the USA by there new Fighter Jet that they almost built if they didnt run out of time. So it was basically a Dominoe effect which why Hitler lost the war because of that Russian Winter. Fact about the Nuclear attack is that if he had completed the plane it would have been sent to New York City.
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Old 08-17-2004, 08:41 PM #105
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They actually did build the fighter jet. Hitler made them produce a bomber version of it instead of the more effective fighter version, killing german air superiority. It wasent a model capable of holding an early nuclear bomb. It was fighter sized rather than b-29 sized.
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