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Old 07-19-2004, 12:55 PM #22
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maybe since the software helps reduce mechanical bounce, the triger was set shorter. Where as if the stock board was in, it would have bounced much more.

So the software was able to reduce the mechanical bounce on single shots, but once shooting, it bounced more.
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Old 07-19-2004, 12:58 PM #23
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All I know is the guy on our team in the robot container said it was not considered a bounce, by him or the officials in the container.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:00 PM #24
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I hope there isn't any trouble of this kind with the Tadao boards. I've seen lots of success with the matrix boards and am awaiting the 03 shocker boards as well.

Chopper and the 665 guys I really admire the responsibility you're taking. Thanks, and good luck in the future.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:08 PM #25
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jimp, thanks, next time we are going to use the whinning and crying method, but we though we would try this first.

I am sure there are people that were around us on Friday that might not of thought we were so commendable, but cooler heads prevailed.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:11 PM #26
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The marker in question is mine........ I had just gotten the board back from Will with the new software upgrades including the AMB software. After one of our games my marker was pulled to be looked at. I had NO worries about it since I've heard from Will himself multiple times he would NEVER make a board that ramped or anything of that nature. The NPPL scrutineer then looked at it and thought something seemed wrong... He hooked it up to the robot and we ran 3 tests...... the results were as follows:

Right after the game the marker was setup on the robot and fired 10 pulls with it.... 14 paintballs came out of it.

Turned the marker off, then back on and tried testing it again right away still setup from earlier...... 10 pulls, only 9 paintballs came out.

While it was still powered up, we shot a half a hopper through it and ran the test again..... 10 pulls, 15 balls came out.

Our team got DQ'ed for the marker "adding shots"....... After the DQ we had him check 2 other Tadao'ed matrix'es on the team and they both failed also. All of these markers were 4.0 boards, the one in my marker was just fresh back from Will with the newest software.

All I can say is that there seems to be some sort of issue since the only 3 tadao'ed matrixes the scrutineer has tested have failed. I wish that the NPPL would let you test your marker prior to using them on the field so you don't end up getting DQ'ed and spending all that money for nothing, but they don't.

There is no way that either myself or any of the other 4 memebers of my team would've knowingly went out onto the field with a marker that does that... We spend WAY too much money on these events out of our own pockets to justify getting kicked out and getting zero points.

So I didn't make my marker fire illegally..... there was no "bounce" in the marker, it just added shots.... It's not like I was trying to go out onto the field with my IM set at DB1 to see how fast it would shoot.... It was set at 7, chrono'ed onto the field fine fine no bounce issues.... which alot of people who were there can attest to them checking really close. All I can do is try to let other people know that there may be an issue since I would hate to have what happened to me and my team happen to anyone else at a NPPL event.

The scrutineer himself should end up posting in this thread about the findings also..... The marker is completely strapped down tight to make sure it is not a "bouncing" trigger......

I know I posted this same thing in the MO forums, I just didnt want to type it all again.....
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:56 PM #27
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Software reacts the same way every time. If it was "adding shots" then every time you ran it on the robot it would produce the same results.

Yet you have variations:

10 pulls, 14 shots.
10 pulls, 9 shots.
10 pulls, 15 shots.

So why did the second firing run only shoot 9 times?

There are two types of bounce; mechanical and electrical. Electrical debounce doesn't care whether the marker is locked down tight or not.
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:02 PM #28
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Wish I knew some of those answers Will. All that I know is that my entire team got DQ'ed and was told that it was because the software on the marker was adding shots.

Dave informed me that he would be posting on here to help out with the findings, so hopefully we will hear from him....
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:21 PM #29
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So how do you correct electrical bounce?
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:30 PM #30
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The debounce setting in the software is used to stop electrical bounce.
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Old 07-19-2004, 04:01 PM #31
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665 you guys were some cool guys sorry about your luck! Hope to see you in Vegas!
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Old 07-19-2004, 04:13 PM #32
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Thanks Datrupimp, we try.

We are trying to figure out the Vegas situation as we speak. Should know in the next couple 'o days what is going to happen.
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:30 PM #33
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It says that the V.4.0 is discontinued? Maybe that goes to say something. Either way... I look at it as a good thing. If there is something wrong with the board than fix it. FlipFlops, at least these guys are being honest about what they did. If it was a board problem, and that was the reason that they were kicked out you should at least admit it. Man... even the Tobacco industry admits their killin us. People still buy them!
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:55 PM #34
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It's been labeled as discontinued for almost a month. Why? Because the 5.0 is coming out soon, so production runs of 4.0s stopped a good while ago.

I'll be the first to admit to a problem as soon as one is found.
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:30 PM #35
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What most of you do not know is that the same 4.0 board people are saying is "ramping" I was perosnally running 6-8 months ago before it was even available to the public. It was used at both Chicago PSP and Orlando PSP with no problems. It has absolutley nothing to do with the board, PERIOD. If I was Will, I personally would Sue the scrutineers personally and NPPL as a whole for defamation of character and possible loss of income. It is a BOLD statement to make that a board is a "cheat" board. It is a statement that I would consider to be reviewed VERY carefully by those who make it and I would also have physical proof that the same marker in it's "STOCK" fashion would not do the samething. You let me take an Ironaman Matrix STRAIGHT from Gen-E (back when they made them) and I guarentee you without a shadow of a doubt I could get it to "add" shots, and this is with no change to the software at all. It is an issue of bounce, and the scrutineers are running around making statements with blinders on. It is a shame that 665 got DQed, but it has nothing to do with the board in their markers.
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Old 07-19-2004, 07:06 PM #36
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You cannot sue the scruntinizers for defimation as they enver mentioend the type of board. They've ony stated that the gun had an illegal board in it. The case would never hold water as there is now, no 100% positive way in the eyes of the court system, to prove the Tadao chip was in the gun.

Had the NPPL staff specified that the "Tadao" chip was found to be an illegal board, and was ramping shots, you might have a case. But given they did a test and found descrepincies, they would be allowed to say such statements.

It is also not a matter of how the guns come stock. The paintball player is the one responsible for ensuring the gun works within the tournament rules. Gen-e could sell the gun with a stock board that ramps both velocity and shots if they watned too, it could also have a full auto mode on it, set to the default. It is the players responsibility to ensure the gear they bring onto the field is in line with the tournament they are playing in.

With the rumors of NXL dropping gun restrictions, you can bet that people will start using the "Its legal in this circuit" excuse when getting caught in circuits that still use the restrictions the NXL drop.
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:00 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by doby45
What most of you do not know is that the same 4.0 board people are saying is "ramping" I was perosnally running 6-8 months ago before it was even available to the public. It was used at both Chicago PSP and Orlando PSP with no problems. It has absolutley nothing to do with the board, PERIOD. If I was Will, I personally would Sue the scrutineers personally and NPPL as a whole for defamation of character and possible loss of income. It is a BOLD statement to make that a board is a "cheat" board. It is a statement that I would consider to be reviewed VERY carefully by those who make it and I would also have physical proof that the same marker in it's "STOCK" fashion would not do the samething. You let me take an Ironaman Matrix STRAIGHT from Gen-E (back when they made them) and I guarentee you without a shadow of a doubt I could get it to "add" shots, and this is with no change to the software at all. It is an issue of bounce, and the scrutineers are running around making statements with blinders on. It is a shame that 665 got DQed, but it has nothing to do with the board in their markers.
Hey dude, it's not the NPPL's fault that the gun appeared to add or even subtract(that strikes me as really wierd) shots. All the dudes did was hook up the gun to the machine and fire it. They didn't say all of the boards should be burned, they just said that this particular gun, weather the fault of the board, the gun, or the player, was bouncing. No lawsuits happening dude. I understand that this would be a tough thing to handle, and I think all parties have handled it in a respectable fassion.
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:16 PM #38
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My statement on this board was made looking at the totality of the situation and from reading remarks from other people that say they were there first hand and have worked with the head "scrutineer" of NPPL. The following quote was taken from Matrixowner.com

Quote:
Originally posted by Toy4x @ Matrixowner.com I was head Ref on the Chronic Field in Denver. I talked to Dave "The Scrutineer" about the Tadao Boards and he has said he is going to try and get them outlawed for the next event Vegas. I also plan to ref Vegas, and plan to bring my Trix so he can test it for me. Dave has suggested to Chuck that they create boards for all the different markers, that way everyone knows they are legal and no one will have any more problems. During chrono markers can be plugged into a computer to see if the boards have been tampered with. If they have, DQ immediately. This may be the only way now to keep people from messing around with boards....and I'm NOT saying Chop Shop or 665 did mess with their boards. But Chop Shops marker was shooting 3 balls per trigger pull...and then went full auto and emptied a hopper...just like LTZ in Vegas Xpsl.
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Old 07-19-2004, 11:27 PM #39
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Maybe it only shot 9 balls....

Because the hopper didn't keep up?

Because you programmed it to not add shots right after a power cycle until a certain number of balls have been shot through it?

Because the NPPL robot is broken?

Because there's a rate that the software moves through state, and a rate that the robot fires, and depending on the ratio of the rates and where in the phase relationship the test was started you get a different number of balls shot?

As a guy who debugs software and hardware for a living, I can assure you, software does *NOT* behave the same way all of the time, and less and less so the more it has to interact with something outside the system (like a user or robot pulling the trigger).


It's a sport, and sports have rules. It is the player's responsibility to determine how close to the "edge" of the rules they want to play - the closer you play to the edge, the more likely you are to get busted. You have to balence the benefits of increasing the performance level of your equipment with the risk of your equipment operating illegally.


Technology has, apparently, just gotten a little bit ahead of itself - we've got boards that allow pretty much anyone to shoot insane rates of fire out of the box, but aren't so good at one shot, one pull. If we keep seriously enforcing that one shot, one pull rule, people will develop boards that are very good at not getting you DQ'd, you just gotta buy those isntead of buying the one that makes you feel like you're hot @#$% because you can get a lot of balls to come out of the barrel.


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Old 07-20-2004, 03:40 AM #40
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As it sits right now, all I can do is go back to my stock LCD board, and hope that it would pass the robot test if I put it on there. I did find it wierd that it only fired 9 shots in the middle cycle also, but as Raehl pointed out there could be alot of reasons for that.. the strangest being it did it right after a power up and it sat off for a minute.

All that software reacting the same way jazz I'll leave up to you guys since i'm lucky i'm able to turn on the computer to get onto this site.... But I sure can turn a wrench.
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Old 07-20-2004, 09:19 AM #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by doby45
What most of you do not know is that the same 4.0 board people are saying is "ramping" I was perosnally running 6-8 months ago before it was even available to the public. It was used at both Chicago PSP and Orlando PSP with no problems.
At LA PSP I wasn't even checked once for bounce. NPPL is much more lax than the NPPL as far as bounce. Plus the strictness of bounce regulations has been getting tighter and tighter each day now. I am in no way saying that your board "cheats"... or that your marker was illegal... but I am sure that a marker that "cheats" was much more easily passable 6-8 months ago.
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Old 07-20-2004, 09:46 AM #42
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Hey guys, all we are trying to say here is we knew the gun was fast without a doubt. We know that Doug can shoot wickedly fast (mechanical cocker, spyder, I don't care the guy has some fast fingers), we did not think we were in a grey area.

Before you walk on the field to a NPPL event a chrono judge shoots your marker. They don't get totally crazy about trying to get it to bounce, but they will pull the trigger nice and slow a couple 3-4 times to try and get it to bounce. This gun past. After the game a judge who was watching Doug rip his gun pulled him a side and said to the robot you go. We went without a worry. We didn't think we would have a problem. Again we knew the gun was fast, but so is Doug.

We get there, they rip a few shots and say hey that thing is fast. They play with the trigger, pulling it slowly, no sweet spot no bounce. They pull the trigger from the bottom, the top, the sides, one pull, one ball. They put it in the robot and the rest is history. The gun did not seem to have a "mechanical bounce" to it at all. Now there is the theory of "electrical bounce". What ever it is/was cost us a lot of pain and suffering.

We just want people to know that this could happen to any of you. Markers are fast, I don't care if you are shooting a shocker, a timmy, a matrix, a angel, a dragon tes. I don't care if it is a stock board or an upgraded board. Companys sell guns on speed, we buy guns for speed, wheather it is a preceived advantage or a real one, 99% of us will pay for speed. Do you know what the company did to that marker to make it fast? Do you know what program that gun runs after 200 shots in under 30 seconds? Do you know were the threshold is on the adjustments to not get a single extra ball out of x amount of trigger pulls. I know we didn't.

All we are saying is watch yourselfs because sitting on the sidelines is not fun.

Again the rule is the rule, we broke it, we got DQ'd for it, we are OK with it. If we had it to do over again we would probably have done it the same way because we didn't know. Sure you can put 50 balls in your hopper and fire away, but you, me, the man on the moon have no idea how many times that trigger was pulled. You don't know if that one tap was hard enough or not to fire a ball. So we can discuss all day long about what was know, what is known and what will be known, but the fact of 665's DQ is we didn't know, the chrono ref didn't know, but the robot said no good.
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