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Old 06-14-2004, 02:28 AM #22
MonkeyG
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bud orr didnt invent the autococker did he? didnt the guy from palmers pursuit invent it?
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:07 AM #23
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first off bud orr hasnt sued anyone. And now that K2 has ownership over WGP it will ulimately be K2s decision weather they sue or not. But Orr may have a say in it but he himself isnt doing the suing. You cant go saying that he is pulling a smartparts. From a business angle what smartparts did was very smart. It may seem bad to people who use aka products but it was very smart. I was mad when i first herd the news of sp winning over aka but it was somthing that happens in business. If anyone has the right to sue it would be K2 they have the rights to the wgp autococker which has been coppied by many companys. And i would be suprised if there was a law suite. They just sent them a letter.
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:17 AM #24
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palmer created the neumatics on the cocker, yeah and it is'nt bud orr it is k2 now, it's a shame paintball has come down to greed,

but bud orr did try to sue splatattack the people that designed the revenge autococker like marker, but he lost that suit,

and yeah to keep a patent i believe you have to act on it when someone is in violation of your patent,

but to keep the sport healthy i rather see the company's get together and settle all disagreements without the courts and keep the sport growing and healthy,
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:26 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by koolcocker25
first off bud orr hasnt sued anyone. And now that K2 has ownership over WGP it will ulimately be K2s decision weather they sue or not. But Orr may have a say in it but he himself isnt doing the suing.
I've already told you that he knew this was coming and the legalese is being made in WGP name. And he still is the president.
Quote:
You cant go saying that he is pulling a smartparts. From a business angle what smartparts did was very smart. It may seem bad to people who use aka products but it was very smart. I was mad when i first herd the news of sp winning over aka but it was somthing that happens in business.
Great. Now you forget who is the customer. The government will not keep business playing nice because politicians are fed by the corporate lobbiest. So it's to us consumers to protect the market. Do you like innovation and a choice of markers? Do you like low prices? Do you like an expanding sport? Well, you have to play a part on keeping it this way. You can be a sheep or a shephard. If you choose to be a sheep and accept that anything is fair game and we shouldn't do anything about it. Then don't waste your time here. Go read the latest payed-for article on paintball.com and buy the lastest Matrix or Shocker since that is _what's cool_. In a couple of years when you only have ****ty and expensive markers from three companies, and whose only innovations is new milling since too much is spent on marketing to justify any R&D, then you can think: "What if I had written a couple of posts and sent a couple of emails?". May be, just may be, we would have made a difference. And if we don't at least we tried and we know it doesn't work.
Quote:
If anyone has the right to sue it would be K2 they have the rights to the wgp autococker which has been coppied by many companys. And i would be suprised if there was a law suite. They just sent them a letter.
First. Have you read about what the AM Illusion is? It's a PUMP, it's not compatible with an Autococker! IT'S NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH ONE.
And second. THE ONLY RIGHTS WGP/K2 HAVE IS TO THE AUTOCOCKER TRADEMARK. Not a single piece of the mechanism. No patents, no copyrights no business dress. Nothing. They are just killing the little guys. The one who actually innovate, with legal fees. Not matter how frivolous the claims.
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Old 06-14-2004, 09:20 AM #26
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Hi! Welcome to big industry! Its natural for patents to be enforced... How long did you think paintball would last before they grew enough to put out patents and have companies protect their products? Sure nobody patented before, simply because paintball was not large enough to survive if they did. This isn't the old days. They are after the money, the thing that runs the world.
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Old 06-14-2004, 11:02 AM #27
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we're discussing "patents to be enforced."

The only problem is that WGP held no patents to the autococker or the sniper. None.

The only thing they did was a few years ago they registered the WGP name and "autococker."

Let me repeat that since everyone seems to be hung up on the subject:

WGP HOLDS NO PATENTS, OR ANY OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY REGARDING THE COMPOSITION OR MECHANICAL ACTION OF THEIR MARKERS.

Lawsuits are present in every industry, and in paintball there have been plenty in the past.

What makes this different is that for the first time, a company with resources beyond the entire industry combined is saying "we don't need to fight a case. This is our property now, and if you disagree we'll pull you into court until you run out of money."

As a small business owner, I've been subject to this. When LTV went under, the company went to its suppliers and demanded back all money paid out 90 days beforehand, to help pay its creditors.

They came to ME, a CREDITOR, and demanded 1 million dollars that I never received from them, or settle. When I showed proof there was no money owed, the lawyer said "You either settle, or we take you to court, get the whole thing, and bury you. Your choice."
click.

Big companies DO NOT NEED to follow the letter of the law when their competition is fighting out of their weight. They get what they want from the small fry, and if they don't, They use the courts as a weapon, ironically the opposite of what the courts were meant to be in the first place. That is, a place of arbitration where two parties could set aside a disagreement and find a mutually acceptable outcome.

If This company begins to follow through on its threats, it doesn't need a legal leg to stand on. It has more than enough money to make up for it.
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Old 06-14-2004, 11:34 AM #28
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it seems that the little guy is haveing extortion committed agains't them, and some of the greatest minds in paintball are being driven out of the sport they had a part in creating,

we as the consumer or customers can change this by choosing wisely who we will stand behind by buying their products,

if we don't then when most of the great minds are gone we will be left with markers created by someone who is very new to the sport, in other words quality will suffer and we won't have as many choices as we once did,

i will not support these greed mongers k2 and or sp's in any way and i hope others will not either, it's your sport what will you do?

while these company's are fighting to be the biggest they are loosing site of where the real power is in this sport it is in the consumer you and i without customers they are no longer in business
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Old 06-14-2004, 11:35 AM #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by m4rine
he has a patent on a specific form of a marker that HE came up with and was perhaps one of the largest innovations in paintball, and yet you flame him for trying to protect it? I think its fair, its not the same thing as SP at all, they are in it to get money, bud orr is simply protecting himself.
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Old 06-24-2004, 04:42 AM #30
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Well I know out here that SP products dont get sold that much anymore from the local store owners I've talked too. The DM4 seems to be the hype of the area. Most here on the west coast seem to shoot cockers, from what I've seen.
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Old 06-24-2004, 09:33 AM #31
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For mulletmadness,
Bud Orr didn't invented the autococking system Glen Palmer did. He has no patents. He never filled for anyone. Which he couldn't since Nelson invented the valve system and Palmer adapted the pneumatic mechanics to an autococking paintball marker. Orr did came out with the moving back block. Which nobody before had used because it add to much length and mass and it's a safty hazard. But even that "invention", if you can call it that, was not patented. And you lose the right to patent if you don't apply for a patent before the product in question has been on the market for one year.
Since it has passed quite a long time, he has no patents for this.
To repeat ORR DIDN'T INVENTED THE AUTOCOCKER SYSTEM AND THUS HAS NO PATENTS TO IT
And second THE ILLUSION IS A PUMP, NOT AN AUTOCKER

On a totall un related note, I've got a Freestyle and it's a dream. You can rip like there's no tomorrow and it wont move. With a 16" Boomstick I've got a 2" dispersion at 30 feet with my bare hands! Simply amazing.

Last edited by baldusi : 06-24-2004 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 06-24-2004, 10:26 AM #32
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i heard about this a long time ago....why does it matter, i think the autococker has been the gun that has been stolen the most....it doesn't matter tho, and they have all the right for keeping their technology
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Old 07-19-2004, 11:54 PM #33
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its not orr's fault, its k2's because they own him now
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Old 07-20-2004, 05:40 AM #34
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ya thats nice bring up a month old thread
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:37 AM #35
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SP = pwnage soup, you all just suck and dont understand business.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:23 PM #36
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i'll care who's sueing who as soon as companies that matter go under

AM, AKA, ICD? WOOD DE FREAKIN DOO!
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:22 AM #37
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June 28, 2004
Trent C. Keisling
Keisling Pieper & Scott PLC
1 East Center Street, suite 217
Fayetteville, Arkansas 72707

Re: Intellectual Property Holdings, Your File No. 012964

Dear Sir:
My name is Glenn Palmer; owner/operator of Palmers Pursuit Shop, which was established in 1987 but has remained a relatively small, service based, operation that also manufactures many products relevant to the situation at hand. Specifically, the auto-cocking, pneumatic system that your client, Worr Games Products, would like for us to believe they have intellectual rights to. In short, I am the one that invented, developed and produced the auto-cocking system, mechanisms and some of the individual components that were adapted for use on/in the Paintball gun now known as the Autococker ™. As such, the true owner of some “valuable intellectual properties”.

After my review of a letter from you to Action Markers, I was thoroughly dismayed by the nefarious nature of its content. While I certainly understand one’s desire to protect their property in this industry, I cannot overlook the fact that your client has long been intentionally and knowingly copying my products and developments, as well as those of several others in and outside of the Paintball industry, thus causing “excessive customer confusion” that can no longer “continue unabated”. Given the present set of circumstances, I find threats of expensive litigation in the Federal Courts, to be utterly reprehensible so I must openly refute all unreasonable claims of “proprietary technologies” and “intellectual property” made by anyone representing or affiliated with the Worr Games Products organization, made for the purpose of creating hardships for others in the business of Paintball. Unfortunately, K2 bought into the same misrepresentations that the folks at WGP have been promoting for about 14 years now, which has in fact brought significant financial loss to me and others.

From my layman’s point of view, it seems that you need to reevaluate your position in regards to the assets that were gained in the acquisition of Worr Games Products Inc. . It may just be that K2 and their new affiliates are actually infringing on MY intellectual properties and might consider this as a demand to cease and desist doing so.

Should you or any of your clients wish to discuss this in greater depth, I can be reached at my place of business between the hours 2:00 and 6:00 PM, Pacific time, most weekdays. See letterhead for contact information. I look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,



Glenn E. Palmer
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:55 PM #38
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Smart PArts is only suing companies that make better guns then they can. Bud Orr is only protecting his designs, and his workers.
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:18 PM #39
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Obvoiusly you didnt read the post just before yours , Glen Palmer , himself , said that WGP didnt invent anything .
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Old 08-08-2004, 05:15 PM #40
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To Glenn: SALUTE!

Dear Glenn,
You are the inspiring personality in this industrie for me. I'm full of ideas and sometimes I feel like the system is against the small guy like me. Specially since I'm in Argentina and filling patents in USA and EU is unbelievably expensive for us. But seeing your actions makes me want to keep experimenting and be a true airsmith.
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Old 08-18-2004, 07:14 PM #41
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ok lets say you somehow invent a new design for a hopper that can reach 60 bps. great design so you put a patent. then you hire people under you so you need money to pay them. then a new company comes and starts making the same thing. and there not paying you for the patent. would you not sue?
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Old 08-18-2004, 09:13 PM #42
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Oh! please! I'm an economist working on patents systems! The system is much more than the mere existence of patents. It's the quality of the reviewers, it's the cost of litigation, it's the rules that determine the scope of a patent, it's a lot of things. So when I say the system is broken doesn't means I'm a communist, radical anarchist or whatever you consider that should be prosecuted for it's way of thinking.
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