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Old 06-16-2005, 08:54 PM #43
CaptnWelts
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Good products, bad company.

What they are really trying to do, if you really look, is corner the market unfairly. They're going after mostly smaller companies who do NOT have the financial resources to fight a long legal battle. What that can do is put perfectly legit companies out of business. The recent defeat of SP in Oregon court by WDP is going to be a huge blow to SP's attempted monopoly on the market, and that's a good thing.

The last thing paintball needs is a Microsoft of paintball companies. SP was by far not the first company to come out with an electronic marker, yet their lawsuite is on the basis of just that.
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Old 06-16-2005, 10:06 PM #44
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If they were going after only small companies the wouldn't have gone after WDP in Oregon. Yes WDP did sort of win that ruling in that the court ruled joint inventorship to both SP and WDP. The Oregon case though isn't really all that recent...the Wisconson case which WDP won outright is much more recent. But that case was WDP Vs SP on a violation that WDP holds and not the patents that SP has used as leverage to sue companies over. Not to mention WDP didn't do any better then SP in this whole affair since WDP took it a step further and went after retail stores for selling the product, not just the manufacturer.
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Old 06-30-2005, 05:01 PM #45
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The thing I dont get is how can Smart Parts patent cover all the electric guns out there? It seems like their patent covers way more technology than a single patent should.
Can anyone post the court ruling or an article so I can read and be more informed?
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Old 07-11-2005, 02:05 AM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyy
well guess what, if you invent something, then patent it, otherwise you are leaving the door open to anyone to steal you idea. It is PERFECTLY legal, and if i were sp, i would do the same. They saw the opportunity to make money, and they took it, thats what businesses do.

This patent process simply cant change because you need the first inventor to fill out a patent. So if they dont do it, its their fault, no body elses
Actually you can't patent something like general knowledge. IMO, switches fall into that category.

Hmm, no one has patented the use of gas in a car. *runs off to patent*
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Old 07-11-2005, 07:22 PM #47
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they didnt patent teh switch, they patented using a switch to fire the marker. so companies like planet eclipse actually went and legally created ideas that sp cant sue them for. although i dont agree with patenting this idea, i support Sp completely, and i refuse to acnowledge all the sp haters
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:49 PM #48
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I dont like what SP did but I still buy from them
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Old 07-12-2005, 10:25 PM #49
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PATENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO PROMOTE INNOVATION. SP uses patents to do exactly the opposite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt
If they were going after only small companies the wouldn't have gone after WDP in Oregon. Yes WDP did sort of win that ruling in that the court ruled joint inventorship to both SP and WDP. The Oregon case though isn't really all that recent...the Wisconson case which WDP won outright is much more recent. But that case was WDP Vs SP on a violation that WDP holds and not the patents that SP has used as leverage to sue companies over. Not to mention WDP didn't do any better then SP in this whole affair since WDP took it a step further and went after retail stores for selling the product, not just the manufacturer.

WDP won that case because they tracked down the real owner of the patent and bought it from him legally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeeatingfish
The thing I dont get is how can Smart Parts patent cover all the electric guns out there? It seems like their patent covers way more technology than a single patent should.

That's because they added extensions before the patent was issued. Originally it was just for the shocker. Eventually it became for any marker that fires with an electronic switch. They kept adding continuations until they had a big enough market to prey on, then let the patent issue. The patent lawyer owner of SP knew how to take advantage of the system, and did it.

Patent offices are overworked, understaffed, and underfunded. Their policy is basically to issue the patents and let the courts sort it out. That's how SP managed to get a patent on something so general.



Court documents of WDP vs. SP:
http://furby.*******************/opinion.pdf

edit: Wow, I can't believe that's censored. Anyway, it's p bcproductions.com (take out the space).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaLfUnCtIoN
sp designed the first marker of this type. it costs them alot. the fact that they are trying to make money off of it is legal and in my opinion, the way it should be.
No, they didn't invent it. PVI invented it. More specifically it was Dr. Hensel.

PVI went under and all of its patents etc. came under the ownership of Key Bank. Smart Parts bought the patent from the bank. Sounds legit? Wrong. PVI never legally owned the patent in the first place.

When Dr. Hensel became a shareholder at PVI, he had to sign an agreement. Part of it wasan agreement that any inventions or patents by Dr. Hensel became property of PVI. Dr. Hensel never signed this portion of the contract. That means that any inventions or patents belonged to him and only him. WDP tracked down Hensel and bought the patent legally. That's the basis of WDP's victory in court.



Sounds like SP just got unlucky and got screwed by PVI's **** up, doesn't it? Sure, and I wouldn't care if they hadn't let the patent sit while they added to it to include a wider variety of products and to stall the approval process to allow the market to grow bigger.


Paintball itself could have been patented when it was invented. It wasn't.
The pin valve could have been patented. It wasn't.
Pneumatic automation could have been patented when it was invented. It wasn't.
The regulated HPA system could have been patented when it was invented. It wasn't.
The stacked tube blowback could have been patented when it was invented. It wasn't.


Had they won, they would have forced smaller companies completely out of buisness and made the larger companies pay huge royalties. Not too many people are gonna pay $2000 for a matrix when they can have an $800 shocker. This is a monopoly. Another well-known monopoly is in the computer industry. What was the last big innovation to come out of Microsoft? I believe it was Windows 95.


On a side note, what has SP done for paintball? Nothing except overhype products that were either no better than their competitors (or useless all together) and stealing ideas.

Exhibit A: The magic box effective range increaser.
Exhibit B: The centrifugal force expansion chamber
Exhibit C: SFT. Seal forward technology (sealing the breech before the ball is fired. "Gives the accuracy of a closed bolt marker". Neat idea, if EVERY other open-bolt marker didn't do the same thing).
Exhibit D: Air-assist
Exhibit E: The insert-bore barrel kit. Good idea, except that it was a copy of the original OTP kit.

Last edited by Goat Reincarnated : 07-12-2005 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:13 PM #50
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So basically whats going on here is its perfectly fine for me to have a patent for ANY pod with a lid???
Smart Parts' patent is bs. Two people in the company are PATENT OFFICERS!!! HMMM, maybe they knew some loopholes? There screwing over ICD and pb as a sport. If they get claims to ALL electronic markers, the price will dramatically increase so they have the monopoly. So you can choose from a $800 BKO or a $450 impulse. If they claim $50 for EVERY electronic marker made/sold in the USA using a "switch" which is hardly defined in the patent. That includes spyders, pirhanas, omens, pimps, bkos, b2ks, angels, trixes, DMs, Timmies, ANYTHING. If some1 finds a different way to make an "electronic marker" W/O a "switch" by all means make patent the **** out of it, protect it from SPs bs claims and lawsuits.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:00 PM #51
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yea, so el dorito has no clue what hes talkign about. Planet eclipse found a way aroyund it... They patented using a switch to fire the gun, not to turn it on. The eblade and EGO's use a breakbeam eye that fires when the beam is broken. Which makes is so that SP cant sue them
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:01 AM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhskins05
they didnt patent teh switch, they patented using a switch to fire the marker. so companies like planet eclipse actually went and legally created ideas that sp cant sue them for. although i dont agree with patenting this idea, i support Sp completely, and i refuse to acnowledge all the sp haters
^^exactly^^

forcing companies to find a way around something is what makes the companies come out w/ new products,

The owners of sp are geniouses

they are making a **** load of money, they deserve whatever they suck out of the other companies

none of us have any say in this matter so stop flaming them, it wont make a difference

Smart Parts doesnt suck, they have guns that are as good as any other(cheaper also)

So how about u kids pull your heads out of your ***** and look at what your saying; SP is gay because they found a way to eliminate competition, make **** loads of money, and sell products for half the cost of others
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:15 PM #53
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aww i might have to start respecting a fellow pbnation member, i have yet to do that. nice post tristan.
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:18 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Reincarnated
WDP won that case because they tracked down the real owner of the patent and bought it from him legally.

No, they didn't invent it. PVI invented it. More specifically it was Dr. Hensel.

PVI went under and all of its patents etc. came under the ownership of Key Bank. Smart Parts bought the patent from the bank. Sounds legit? Wrong. PVI never legally owned the patent in the first place.

When Dr. Hensel became a shareholder at PVI, he had to sign an agreement. Part of it wasan agreement that any inventions or patents by Dr. Hensel became property of PVI. Dr. Hensel never signed this portion of the contract. That means that any inventions or patents belonged to him and only him. WDP tracked down Hensel and bought the patent legally. That's the basis of WDP's victory in court.
Actually the documents I read and the court findings that PVI and Dr. Hensel JOINTLY developed the technology. WDP only won a joint inventorship on that ruling not a sole inventorship.

Which brings to mind a thought that has been bothering me lately...that is Dr. Hensel's reasoning for not signing the document and what would have happened had PVI properly followed up on the document before Dr. Hensel started to work with them on the design. And why would he sell his rights to a patent worth millions for so little?

And there is still the fact that WDP sued retail stores in it's suit against SP. Something SP did not do. So SP isn't the only one pickin on the little guys.

Last edited by InspGadgt : 07-25-2005 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:07 PM #55
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for one. he didnt sell it for a small price at all, im pretty sure he can live comfortably off of that for a while.

second, he sold it for cheaper than he could of most likely because he didnt like what smart parts was doing with it. i just dont understand why smart parts didnt try to out bid wdp on it
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:38 PM #56
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I'm trying to find the court write up on the case but I remember the amount was only around $50,000 which really is pretty small. Even if it was $500,000 that would be a small amount when looking at the potential profit off of said patent.

Secondly I doubt that his decision to sell had anything to do with what SP was doing to the industry. As far as SP knew PVI had sole rights to the patent so they probably didn't even know WDP was in the market to buy the rights from Dr. Hensel.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:31 PM #57
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yea, you win. you obviously know a lot more than me about this subject, there for arguing would be idiotic.

only thing is i thought he made like 200,000 of the patent?
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:42 PM #58
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Well as I said earlier...when I first read the amount WDP paid Dr. Hensel I thought to myself it didn't seem like much. 200,000 would be a lot better but still not much when you consider he probably makes 100k a year allready and the potential revenues from such a patent would be in the millions.
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Old 08-02-2005, 06:38 PM #59
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I dont see how anybody can patent the electronic paintball gun smart parts patent says that if you manufacture a gun that uses and electrical current, uses any kind of electrical switch or a solinoid you pay them millions of dollars. I think that patent is to broad and needs to be more specific. What smart parts is monopolizing the paintball industry just like what people think microsoft tried to do with the computer industry. The only reason smart parts is doing this is because they dont make the best guns anymore and they are losing money so instead of trying to fix that problem the correct way by upping the quality and performance of there markers they have just decided to try to put the compitition out of buisness. They are currently suing Indian Creek Designsand they have already put AKA out of buisness and that is only the begining if they win the lawsuit agains Indian Creek then they will go through and sue every company that has ever made an electronic paintball gun like wdp, dye, bob long, kingman, pmi, planet eclipse.
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Old 08-03-2005, 07:50 PM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt
Actually the documents I read and the court findings that PVI and Dr. Hensel JOINTLY developed the technology. WDP only won a joint inventorship on that ruling not a sole inventorship. I should have been more clear. Hensel designed the electronics, but was not a named inventor. WDP won the case in the sense that they didn't have to pay royalties, not that they won sole inventorship. Again, I should have been more clear.

Which brings to mind a thought that has been bothering me lately...that is Dr. Hensel's reasoning for not signing the document and what would have happened had PVI properly followed up on the document before Dr. Hensel started to work with them on the design. I don't know, but the fact remains that he didn't sign it. And why would he sell his rights to a patent worth millions for so little?

And there is still the fact that WDP sued retail stores in it's suit against SP. Something SP did not do. So SP isn't the only one pickin on the little guys.

The Hensel patent issue is not what makes me angry with smart parts. It's just a convienient loophole that stopped them. My beef with them comes out of their manipulation of the patent system.
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Old 08-03-2005, 10:32 PM #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariners02
I dont see how anybody can patent the electronic paintball gun smart parts patent says that if you manufacture a gun that uses and electrical current, uses any kind of electrical switch or a solinoid you pay them millions of dollars. I think that patent is to broad and needs to be more specific. What smart parts is monopolizing the paintball industry just like what people think microsoft tried to do with the computer industry. The only reason smart parts is doing this is because they dont make the best guns anymore and they are losing money so instead of trying to fix that problem the correct way by upping the quality and performance of there markers they have just decided to try to put the compitition out of buisness. They are currently suing Indian Creek Designsand they have already put AKA out of buisness and that is only the begining if they win the lawsuit agains Indian Creek then they will go through and sue every company that has ever made an electronic paintball gun like wdp, dye, bob long, kingman, pmi, planet eclipse.
you are arguing about something you obviously do not know much about. You dont understand what they patented, or what they did in their lawsuits, so please, dont come in heere acting all tough with your boycott sp stance, untill you research or read a couple posts from the thread.

ill explain.
they patented using a microswitch to fire a marker, not using electrical current.

second. all they sued for is royalties, which although i dont agree with teh logic, they legally have the right to do. they wanted part of the money made from everygun other companies sold that used the patented idea.

3rd - smart parts still sells the shocker, which if you have not noticed is one of the high end markers, used by many pro teams. These guns are very good, i used to won one and it shot incredible, i simply prefered teh feel over a dm4.
also they produce the ion, which hit the market by storm. these are great markers for the price, and will remain popular for awhile

4th- they will not go through and sue every company, ie. wdp planet eclipse, wgp.. WDP part owns the patent,so go whine about them to instead of your boycott smart parts bulls***. Planet eclipse had no problems producing their own design, which wgp also uses, under agreement with planet eclipse.


the only problem i have with smart parts has nothing to do with any of this. They simply do not have good customer service, which i have grown accustomed to with dye.
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