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View Poll Results: Distance/Accuracy
Yes, some markers like autocockers and phantoms can be better 27 35.06%
No, with same barrel/paint/fps, all markers are equal 50 64.94%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 01-10-2002, 01:01 AM #22
Angel Killer
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no i shot ever kind of paint throu my 98 and i had 2 differnt barrels and my friend has another barrel that is differnt that does the same thing and i have shoot paint though a big ball barrel on my tourny gun and they still wouldnt curve like the 98.

so if its all the barrel to paintb match they venturi bolts wouldnt matter much would they.

10 bucks says you got a after market bolt on what ever gun you own
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Old 01-10-2002, 01:36 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angel Killer
lol so your saying i could put a barrel on a stingray and with the same barrel and paint match as one on an angel they would shot identical! sweet deal i guess i wont be needing that angle all i gotta do is buy a 40 dollar gun and barrel and im set !
you forget reliability, consistency, and overall performance we'll talk bushmasters here instead of angels because i know more about them.
here's stuff on a bushmaster that makes it better than a hyperframed spyder once you've got perfect paint to barrel matches.
1. better reg
2. an lpr (to regulate it once again)
3. an electronic 4-way valve=an 8-way (spyder only has 1)
my valve is precisely opened electronically while the spyder uses a hammer to go forward and slam the valve open driven by a spring while mine is done by regulated air.
4. my bushmaster has much less kick, which helps because the guns AREN'T being tested in a vise.
5. my spyder was mainly plastic parts and broke somehow every time i played. I've yet to have a problem w/ my bushmaster.
6. the trigger is much more comfortable to pull and easier to achieve a higher rof when needed (lets say i'm snap shooting and i stay 'out" of my bunker for 1/2 a second, i have a lot better chances of hitting somebody w/ 5 balls than i do w/ 1)
7. the valve can handle the higher rof.

these are only a weak reasons i came up w/ off the top of my head comparing my old spyder and my new bushmaster.
but my little brother uses a spyder clone, we've been playing for the same amount of time and always play side by side, so our skill level and playing style is close to the same (i might be a bit better ) but it makes for good comparison.

if between games we are both shooting at a small object him and I will ussually hit it in the same number of shots if we take turns shooting 1 ball each. but if we both go all out and see who hits it first, it's normally me because of less shootdown, better shot-shot consistency and i get the 3 balls is takes to hit the object out my barrel faster than he gets out his 5 (takes more because of kick and not as good consistency).

so i strongly believe that on a one shot basis, vise grippped down, all guns are equally accurate after the paint to barrel.
and they definately have the same range after they are out the end of the barrel and over the chrono.
all the guns i've used have been the same, sometimes it feels like balls are going farther but it's normally just because of less kick so your brain compensates for it and adds the distance for all the kickback you don't have (or atleast what's happened to me until i actually tested it out)


well my fingers are tired so i'll return to ramble more about this later
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Old 01-10-2002, 06:32 AM #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angel Killer

so i do believe that the gun makes a difference.

I got a couple guys agree'ing with me for once! This is turning out funny most of you not agreeing with me look like newbies..
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Old 01-10-2002, 07:01 AM #25
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Range is the same on all guns, backspin systems aside.

Moving on...

Accuracy is dependent on paint/barrel match and consistent air flow from shot to shot. A spyder with a perfect paint/barrel match but no regulator (or a crappy regulator) will not be as accurate as a high-end gun with a perfect paint/barrel match and a very high-quality, consistent regulator. Now, if somebody actually took time and threw a max flow regulator on a spyder, along with a nice barrel and had a perfect paint fit, the gun would be pretty much as accurate as any other gun. Other factors that could possibly make it less accurate are still debatable, such as the influence of high pressure versus low pressure.

Oh, and Moe21, you are just a moron. "Some guns just have different parts for distance..........." Wow, that's so funny I don't know how to react. Like a tippmann has some super duper thingie in front of the bolt that makes its balls fly further. Moe21, maybe you should stop explaining your theories to other people and do a bit more research, because right now you're just embarrassing yourself.
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Old 01-10-2002, 08:18 AM #26
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Other components.

I agree that gun does matter. The other internals matter also! The bolts, valve. . . If it didn't help then why do they make so many aftermarket parts? The type of air you use, nitro or co2. It also depends on how you hold each gun, your aim.
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Old 01-10-2002, 10:32 AM #27
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Re: Other components.

Quote:
Originally posted by j7million
If it didn't help then why do they make so many aftermarket parts
Because people like you believe the hype and buy them.

Of all the guns I own, when they are in the same velocity range, they all get the same distance. Some are better than others, eg, my sniper II I can hit just about anything with, while it takes me a few more tries with my model 98. Why? It's obvious the sniper II is a better made gun, but it's not because of those design tolerances. In this case it's because of the velocity adjustment system on the tippmann that is inherently inconsistent. The screw blocks or frees air flow through the valve. With a rear velocity adjustor you get slightly better performance, but you still have a goddamn hole in your valve heh. It's inconsistent, the fps jumps about, and so not every shot goes where the last one went. My sniper II has a palmer stab on it, not to mention a better valve design. It is more consistent, maybe +/- 5 fps. It also "feels" better to me, I've shot more through it, have a stock on it, and am just used to it's weight and balance that I know where my shots were going to go. I think it just feels better to most people, making it seem more "accurate" to my friends. No it's not more accurate because it's a pump gun, it's more accurate because the velocity does not fluctuate. That and when using the pump you are more likely to aim instead of randomly spraying.

Anyway, the point of this anecdote is to illustrate that ultimately, it all comes down to paint to barrel match, and velocity.

So what us advocates of real world phsyics say, is that yes, a stingray could perform as well as an angel with regards to accuracy and range. However in practice this is not a reality. The angel just has a better valve and regulator on it, not to mention uses HPA. So it is extremely consistent. The stingray on the other hand just does what it's supposed to. It has the potential, but it would take a lot of work to get a good regulator on there, the same barrel, and manage to keep the velocity at the same 285 fps as the angel all day. It could happen, but for the cost of bringing a stingray up to the same level you might as well look at a higher end semi or a low end true electro, not a sear tripper.
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Old 01-10-2002, 11:13 AM #28
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well said bridger
but dont forget accuracy also depends on the condition of your pait. if it has dimples it wont go as straight as a more rounded spherical shaped paintball.
also weather conditions can affect accuracy. if it is a windy day that can greatly affect your accuracy
but the main factors for good accuracy is a decent paint/barrel match and a good veocity range maybe 285-295fps
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Old 01-10-2002, 12:36 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angel Killer

so if its all the barrel to paintb match they venturi bolts wouldnt matter much would they.

Ok, you must also know that the venturi bolt is the biggest crock of **** to ever be made in paintball? All they do is restrict airflow, V-bolts are ****. Plain and simple. What they claim to do is different than what they actually do. Biggest scam.... well, before ''Da Big Rubout" came along. That then topped the cake.
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Old 01-10-2002, 01:10 PM #30
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The whole concept of a venturi bolt was not to improve accuracy or range. The idea was that a venturi bolt spreads the airflow out better so that the 'cushion' of air hitting the ball was gentler, which seemed like a good idea in high pressure guns. Does it really make a difference? I honestly don't know. But I know that I use an open-face bolt in my bushy to improve flow, since it's already gentler thanks to its low pressure.

The way I see it, range is based on ONLY the following things:

-velocity
-trajectory
-spin
-environmental conditions
-ball weight

and accuracy is ONLY based on the following things:

-paint/barrel match
-ball aerodynamics and quality/consistency from ball to ball
-air flow consistency
-environmental conditions

Everything else is either more debatable or simply illogical. Perhaps a low pressure gun is more accurate due to less ball distortion and decreased kickback, but it's debatable. But the open vs. closed bolt range and/or accuracy argument, to me, seems downright illogical. And the "some guns have different parts for distance......" comment was just laughable.
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Old 01-10-2002, 02:39 PM #31
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I have stated this before. Check warpig. They converted an open bolt gun to closed bolt. I think it was a stingray. They shot with both and had the SAME EXACT results. Check out the website if u dont believe me. It will solve this debate once and forall
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Old 01-10-2002, 03:37 PM #32
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You all seem to forget this: Paint/barrel match and velocity determine distance.

But what you fail to realize is that the results are affected by the following. Air source is important, because Co2 can change into a liquid state through any phase in cycling and affect the way the paintball is propelled. Even a small fraction of gas converted to liquid can hinder the outcome.

The design of the gun also matters, because some o-rings may not be big enough to seal the air in, and others may be too big preventing proper friction.

Chronographs read 300 fps, but that could be anywhere from 300.00 to 300.99 fps, making more of a difference than you think.

One gun's bolt may be more or less lubricated than another, causing a certain friction that doesn't propel the ball right.

One gun may kick more than the other, making the gun start to trail off wherever it wants during rapid-fire. This can make certain strings go wherever they want.

Unless you keep firing over the chronograph, you don't know that the gun's velocity is staying the same ALL THE TIME. To go with this, the regulators may not be as consistent as you think, and a difference in flow and consistency can make all the difference.

The flow of the air around the ball can affect its outcome. A guy I know drilled a very bizzare pattern in the venturi bolt that came with his gun. Boy oh boy, did his shots curve.

And finally, in terms of accuracy, my matrix kicked the crap out of my cocker! I tried the same batch of Team Colors in the stock CP from my matrix and I shot darts. Next, I put it in the cocker and I had a six-inch group. Why did I ditch the matrix you ask? Because the cocker works.
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Old 01-10-2002, 04:48 PM #33
Angel Killer
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i bet half the people on pbnation that believe that accuracy depends on paint to barrel match have a venturi bolt on there guns thats funny.
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Old 01-10-2002, 05:14 PM #34
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i have the stock bolt on both my guns
although on my shocker im gettin a delrin bolt to improve efficiency
and on my mag a superbolt for less recoil and faster cycle speed

but neither of those are for accuracy
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Old 01-10-2002, 07:14 PM #35
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You have the stock bolt on both of your guns?

Well then that solves everything! No.

Who is to say that they are the same length/diameter/style/configuration/face style/material/mass?
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Old 01-10-2002, 07:17 PM #36
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Quote:
Unless you keep firing over the chronograph, you don't know that the gun's velocity is staying the same ALL THE TIME. To go with this, the regulators may not be as consistent as you think, and a difference in flow and consistency can make all the difference.
You can usually get a good feel for the variance in fps. My setup gives me a consistency of no worse than +-9 from shot to shot, and I've had tourneys where I've been as consistent as +- 3 fps the whole day. Is it varying more dramatically when I'm on the field? No way of knowing.

But that's not the point anyways. When having the range debate most people are talking about one or two magical guns that they think CONSISTENTLY get significantly more range than other guns, and that's just not true (backspin systems aside).

In terms of the accuracy debate, your comments are, pardon the pun, dead on.

Quote:
Chronographs read 300 fps, but that could be anywhere from 300.00 to 300.99 fps, making more of a difference than you think.
Well, if we do the math, the ball will travel 1 foot per second further over the course of the shot. Even when longballing, the ball is usually at its destination within, say, 3 seconds max. That's a 3 foot variation...so the variance is insignificant to the range debate, but quite significant to the accuracy debate. 3 feet can mean the difference between gogging the guy peaking out from the cone and just scaring him back into his bunker (but we all know that our variance from shot to shot will be more than 1 fps anyways...hence most current players usually shoot more than one shot at a time ).

Quote:
The flow of the air around the ball can affect its outcome. A guy I know drilled a very bizzare pattern in the venturi bolt that came with his gun. Boy oh boy, did his shots curve.
I believe it, since the unequal flow of air hitting the ball probably gave it spin as it traveled down the barrel, resulting in a curved shot.

Mr_mich, don't think I'm disagreeing with you. For the most part I agree with everything you posted. I just wanted to elaborate on these few points.
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Old 01-10-2002, 08:38 PM #37
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true, velocity makes all the diffrence.

kinetic energy quadruples as speed doubles.

so a guy shooting 285 fps is going to have a lot more range than sombody shooting 260 fps.

I cant stress this enough even a 1 FPS diffrence can equate to a few feet more range.

The diffrence between sombody shooting 275fps and 285 fps is likely to be more than 30 feet.
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Old 01-11-2002, 05:57 AM #38
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Exactly Butterfingers, and since some people can get closer to the max speed for a field (thanks to a consistent reg) without the risk of exceeding it, while others have to chrono lower just to be safe, you usually end up with some guys aiming for 290 and others safely going as low as 280, just so they don't accidentally hit 301. Throw in shot-to-shot variation, and it's possible to see the consistent gun shoot 300 while the other one is shooting as low as, let's say, 265, which could lead to a range difference between these two guns of as much as 105 feet on those longer shots. Although this is a theoretical situation, similar situations happen all the time at fields, giving the illusion that some guns are magically outranging others.

Every post on range points out that with the same paint, paint/barrel match, barrel, velocity, trajectory, and environment, all guns should get the same range. I believe this 100%, but you will never get this scenario in real life, outside of some place like Warpig testing it.
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Old 01-11-2002, 03:46 PM #39
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Oh lord, I was shooting 230 at the last tournament.... Jeez, I guess everyone could swat my shots out of the air....
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Old 01-11-2002, 06:14 PM #40
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And..

When testing this situation the lower pressure you have the shorter the ball will go.. Example... You get yer nitro filled to 3000 psi and adjust yer veolocity to 285. After playin a couple games you got 1000 psi left.. You go chrono your gun it's gonna be shootin 265 or sumtin...
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Old 01-11-2002, 06:59 PM #41
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Moe21, reduced velocity can be the result of running low on air, yes...to the point that the pressure left in your nitro tank is lower than that necessary to operate your gun. For example, the operating pressure of a spyder is roughly 700 psi, give or take. When your tank pressure drops below that there will be two results. Result 1: your shots will droop (because there's not enough air pressure left to get your shot up the the velocity you had chrono'd it to). Result 2: blowback guns will sound as if they've gone 'full auto' because there's not enough pressure to recock the bolt, so it bobs back and forth against the valve, creating the annoying sound until either you stop it or you run out of air.

Take my bushmaster for a second example though. My operating pressure is 180, so my tank can go that low before I start seeing the effects of having a low tank. When my air does run that low, my shots begin to droop, and I can hear my gun gasping for air, since the recharge is now taking so long. Since a bushy isn't a blowback gun though, I don't get that 'full auto' effect of a blowback gun.

Get all that?
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Old 01-12-2002, 02:34 PM #42
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Quote:
Result 2: blowback guns will sound as if they've gone 'full auto' because there's not enough pressure to recock the bolt, so it bobs back and forth against the valve, creating the annoying sound until either you stop it or you run out of air.
I should clarify, it's the hammer under the bolt that is bobbing back and forth against the valve, since there is not enough blowback to push the hammer far enough back to catch on the sear.
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