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Old 03-08-2004, 08:56 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by timebomb
I was part of the 5minute penalty frenzy on the divisional fields. Got ejected and my gun put in gun jail for the game. What sucks is my gun doesn't double shoot, the only bounce there is is the one from the guns recoil when pulling very slowly.

Oh well, if they don't want bounce I guess we'll all go back to shooting mechanical autocockers

Mike
One of the guys on my team used a mechanical cocker in LA, the chrono reff tapped the side of his swing trigger like it was going to bounce. No joke!
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Old 03-08-2004, 08:59 PM #23
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Reminds me of when i was helping out the JT field at the XPSL event in Vegas last week. I was with the other refs chronoing and one of the kids shot me in the leg point blank. "He goes, **** sorry, i didnt even touch the trigger" Well since he said that we checked his gun. We re-named his gun for him "Da-Bounce-King" yea... i mean some guns are just so obvious.

We show the whole team... we shoot two times and like 4 balls come out. Simple 2 trigger pulls. Not many people can argue that.

Yes, i think it is lame actually taking time to try to make a gun bounce.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:03 PM #24
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my led trix will go off with a small hit to the gun but it doesnt bounce. i mean never i can single pull a entire hopper with out any bounce at all. so will my gun considered to have bounce?
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Old 03-08-2004, 10:00 PM #25
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it comes down to-of they want it to bounce then it will bounce, you can make a stock impulse bounce if you know what youre doing, so basically be nice to the chrono refs :-0
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Old 03-08-2004, 11:14 PM #26
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none of ignitions guns got pulled. we didnt recieve one penalty, and there is nothing to ***** about. if our guns were illegal we wouldve goten a penalty.
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:59 AM #27
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i think the psp and nppl need major revisions on this rule, i mean my team had to put our guns on like debounce 10 before the game to get them to pass and then they would only shoot 12 bps max, they should just allow debounce like the nxl, much easier.
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Old 03-09-2004, 09:05 AM #28
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guys the chrono ref on the JT field was nothing but a prick and if he reads this he will know who posted this cause i told him he had no reason to be a prick. He did a damn good job at assaulting your markers if you handed them to him, he would beat the crap out of the side of them and sometimes hit the trigger twice. It was the worst case of MARKER ABUSE I ever saw.

I do agree for the most part on the field reffing was pretty fair. MisFit Toys reffed the ten man xball field and you guys did a nice freaking job guys all day long just to bad we only played that field twice.

oh yeah we had a LED trix and an LCD Trix neither with debounce settings on them and the judge would beat the hell out of them get them to shoot twice and say you need to set the debounce down on that thing. it was BAD.
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Old 03-09-2004, 12:49 PM #29
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what I find funny is that debounce=anti bounce software, so by turning it down it'd increase the amount of bounce. People at our field sometimes say guns have cheater "debounce". It just bothers me that they think they know what they're talking about.

On a side note, I use to have a storm that was 100% legal when you pulled the trigger in a normal fashion, but if you hit the side of the gun it'd go off like full auto. Also rental guns at our field bounce from time to time if you hold the trigger in the right spot.

How can they expect people to use any electronic gun? Every gun will have a sweet spot from the kick, its not like people try and do gay stuff like that in a game when thier trying to shoot someone.

I'd say stick to the rules...3 shots in a normal fashion over the chrono
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Old 03-09-2004, 10:38 PM #30
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one of my teammates got pulled for bounce.. not for just a penalty, but for the whole match. plus, the guy in charge of psp personally had a talk with him, they took down his player id and soon sent him on his way.

one word: overreation
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Old 03-10-2004, 12:59 AM #31
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cheater guns set up to illegally bounce = bad

over zealous refs without proper bounce check training = bad too!

There needs to be a balance and a standard procedure for checking and catching cheaters and their illegal and unsafe guns.
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Old 03-10-2004, 04:31 PM #32
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Man, with all these bounce rules its crazy. The guy who runs the field that sponsors us showed me an old mag that was setup so if you held the trigger the right way, it shoots full auto. This is an old mechanical mag shooting full auto. It was insane.
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Old 03-10-2004, 05:00 PM #33
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Yes, the fastest mechanical only gun is the mag (RT valve)

Videos:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/...Zak%20Semi.mov

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a couple more here:

http://paintball.butters.org/

I think if hair trigger debounce 1 cheater guns are going to be tolerated, then the Automag RT (w/high rt settings), M98RT, and A-5 RT should be allowed also.
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:32 PM #34
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There will always be ways to cheat, all of this is so stupid. Traditonal ways of getting your gun to shoot fast are now obsolete. Now guns have to have "cheater programming" if you want a gun to shoot fast and get past prick choro refs. Once they have their "robot" start checking or shoot the guns over a ballistic chrono, the code will just become more and more copmlex to get around it, whether it's trigger sequences or what ever to put it in turbo mode.
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:44 PM #35
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exactly those who want to cheat will find a way to cheat. all this stuff is simply going overboard and is just gonna hurt the players in the long run. when u have to shoot and entire hoppper to find a little bounce will it make any difference on the field? if a gun is seriously bouncing will be obvious to any chrono judge and should be dealt with but this nit picking is going to far.
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:53 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackMagicMan
...for the record all alias and empire timmys all ramp straight out of the box. as is the case with every dm4 out of the box... everyone needs to get their facts stright.
and if anyone doubts that these guns ramp out of the box. well all i can say is sucks to be you cause when the psp really cracks down and checks these guns to determine bounce dwell ramping and everything else well that sucks for all you.
All I can say is WOW! You must have some very solid proof that all Alias's, Empire's and DM4's leave the factory with illegal ramping programming in the chips. I mean because otherwise you are just another rumor spreader laying down some heavy manure- and accusations.
It would be suicide for a company to sell a tournament level marker that was already illegal out of the box. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think the Egi would want his rep to be one that Dye hired him to makes illegal boards for the DM4, and the same can pretty safely be said about whomever is doing Bob Long's programming.
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackMagicMan
everyone needs to get their facts stright.
Take your own advice and get you facts straight before starting another rumor as you supposedly set the record straight for the first rumor that was started at the begining of this thread.
DM4's do not- DO NOT ramp coming from the factory. There is some kid that is supposedly making cheater boards for the DM4 out of SoCal, but he's the only one I know of that is making an illegal aftermarket board or chip. We sent him packing from Matrixowner for even suggesting it.
I'm pretty sure, although I cannot say for certain- since I do not know anyone at Bob Long's company- that timmys do not ramp either. Some do come with modes of firing, but that should be it.
However, ALL electronic, High-end markers can have bounce with a light enough switch, which can generate false signals that register as a pull before and after the real pull- which is the whole purpose for Debounce programming.
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Old 03-10-2004, 10:20 PM #37
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I agree with hawk. That was a pretty incorrect statement.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:54 AM #38
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jay,
go to ultimate one of these days when matt is there, have him shoot his dm4 for you. he managed to get his hand on a dm4 board used by team legacy. it doesn't bounce, but when he "brushes" the side of the trigger repeatedly, the gun will start ramping shots untill he is shooting faster then a halob can feed.
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:20 AM #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by streetdoc77
I do agree for the most part on the field reffing was pretty fair. MisFit Toys reffed the ten man xball field and you guys did a nice freaking job guys all day long just to bad we only played that field twice.

Thanks man
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Old 03-11-2004, 09:01 AM #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by chynzexguy
...it doesn't bounce, but when he "brushes" the side of the trigger repeatedly, the gun will start ramping shots untill he is shooting faster then a halob can feed.
Are you talking about raking the trigger?? Raking the trigger is about the easiest way to get the most out of your trigger. And if the trigger sensativity is set to it's most sensative, it will cause "bounce". Combine that with raking (approx 5 hits per down and up stroke- counted as 1 full stroke) and a really light trigger, and the trigger can technically bounce against the raking finger during the full stroke a lot more than 5 times, resulting in obnoxious rates of fire. You can easily outshoot a halo like that.
With my LED matrix, before installing the eyes, I had a standard LED board with the GUN20 chip and I have been pulled off the field after a game in several different tournaments to have my gun checked for "ramping" or illegal modes of fire. It was stock with a short trigger job. Nothing was ever found and no penalties given. Now, with the tadao v4 board, I can rake a little faster and still, with eyes on- NO bounce (debounce setting of 4 to prevent bounce). However, with eyes off, it bounces a little. But the point is, that it is possible to start laying a stream and during that stream, get it just right so you get even faster for a second or so, but not consistantly like a board that is actually programmed to ramp.
So, either the guy with the Legacy team's chip/board is raking with bounce, or it's had the original programming altered- but that is not likely.
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Old 03-11-2004, 09:14 AM #41
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There are 2 different boards in the DM4s. One is your standard board that works just fine. The other is a cheater board that eventually adds shots or ramps up shots after a few shots are fired. I believe one board when turned on goes green to red or red to green. The other board goes blue to red or something like that. This is a known issue players are just starting to find out about. Like it or not several guns were designed this way, blame the manufacturer, not the tournament people. They are there to provide safety to the players. It would be nice if they had one ruling on how to deal with all guns but since a lot of these markers and issues are new it's kinda hard to do that. If there were no rules everyone would be shooting full auto and ramping their velocity up as well which some already do. From what I hear there is a robot that is being built that will test for ramping of shots, dwell, and bounce. When it will be ready is anyone's guess but this will eliminate all the issues.
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Old 03-11-2004, 10:28 AM #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by titan
There are 2 different boards in the DM4s. One is your standard board that works just fine. The other is a cheater board that eventually adds shots or ramps up shots after a few shots are fired. I believe one board when turned on goes green to red or red to green. The other board goes blue to red or something like that. This is a known issue players are just starting to find out about. Like it or not several guns were designed this way, blame the manufacturer, not the tournament people. They are there to provide safety to the players. It would be nice if they had one ruling on how to deal with all guns but since a lot of these markers and issues are new it's kinda hard to do that. If there were no rules everyone would be shooting full auto and ramping their velocity up as well which some already do. From what I hear there is a robot that is being built that will test for ramping of shots, dwell, and bounce. When it will be ready is anyone's guess but this will eliminate all the issues.
I'm going to check over at MO about this to see if anyone can verify what color their lights are on the gun.
Now, I do know that (because I own one) that the Tadao V4 boards for a Standard Matrix (AKA DM3) have a blue light for when eyes are on and red for when they are off, and if Flops made full boards for Trauma's DM4's then he probably stuck with the same color scheme, but all of Trauma's guns are legal- as with any of the chips and boards that Will builds.
Actually, I just found where the instructions and descriptions of Will's (flipflops) new DM4 upgrade chip and it does use the same color scheme as the Tadao.
http://www.xsfadvantage.com/product_info_dm4.html
and I also just looked at the DM4 manual and Blue is boot, red is breech clear, gun ready, and green is ball loaded, ready to fire.
http://www.dyematrix.com/pdfs/DM4_Manual.pdf
There is a kid out in SoCal that was trying to take orders for cheater boards on MO- he was banned as I mentioned earlier, but it's probably his board that is floating around out there. But this is all aftermarket, so that indicates that the markers do not ship from Dye with ramping boards in them.
I will still ask Dave Youngblood though, as I am very curious.
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