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Old 06-25-2014, 05:38 PM #22
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You believe me to be Christian?

I though you were...my bad.

Christians typically point to:

2 Timothy 3:16-17


and suggest that God is the singular author Who used multiple vessels to do His work. So the pretense that the bible is a "loose collection from multiple authors" is already a point of contention. None the less, I think it'd be easier to answer your question with a specific scenario. Can you give an example?

Well...that bible qoute is a pretty weak arguement if you ask me. It's like saying "oh course this was inspired by god, it says right so right here!".

Hmmm. ill try to think of an example, gotta run now.




Many Christian denominations believe the same way and most don't consider Mormonism a form of Christianity either.
Yeah, i know
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:06 PM #23
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I am, but I wouldn't say I'm a very good one... my positions change as my worldview expands. I'd say that Ghandi described my general sentiment when he said he likes Christ, but not Christians. I am not super indoctrinated and don't subscribe to many formal positions.

Edit: the only weak argument from a Christian perspective is one that isn't backed with scripture. It's part of the reason that there are so many denominations. Rather than using a scriptural basis, many denominations have placed their traditions or their own ideas over what the bible actually says. Saying a Christian shouldn't use the bible as their basis for an argument is nonsensical.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:07 AM #24
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Bold means that the mormon church sees men and women as not being equal in terms of leadership roles.

There are other things of course, its not their only focus but it has been made more public as of late.
I don't think Mormons go through great lengths to hide it. Women are sent to the university pretty much to meet future husbands since they generally are required to be stay at home wives.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:13 AM #25
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Just like any other religion, there are different "denominations" of Mormonism. Mormon fundamentalists are the ones that the show "Sister Wives" is based on.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:23 AM #26
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Just like any other religion, there are different "denominations" of Mormonism. Mormon fundamentalists are the ones that the show "Sister Wives" is based on.
Right trying to speak very generally here.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:53 AM #27
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Yeah, fair enough... I kind of knew what you meant. Mormonism in general is very "conservative" by today's standards. As a general rule, most Mormons I know try to conduct themselves proper and are respectful, but tend to shy away from discussing their beliefs.

Most Christian denominations don't allow women in leadership positions in the church either. Defined gender roles is a MUCH bigger discussion (even without religion... simply on the psychological merits) and it's one that I wouldn't get involved in.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:23 AM #28
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Okay, i though of an example. Slavery. From what I have read, the bible in my opinion, condones slavery. The arguements used in the confederate south were taken from scripture or at least supported by it. I realize some christians used other parts of the bible to argue against slavery but out of both sides...the confederates made more sense considering the text. The qoutes that support slavery are pretty cut and dry while the ones used to be against it were more broad in nature and takes a lot of 'special' interpretation. You would think that an all knowing and loving god would take a little more care to make the issue more clear like actaully saying that slavery is wrong and not to own people...easily could have made into the 10 commandments. So for those that say slavery is scripture based, they kinda have a point.
I realize this comes down to interpretation but again its not hard to see where the proponents of slavery get their arguements in the bible.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:58 AM #29
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Okay, i though of an example. Slavery. From what I have read, the bible in my opinion, condones slavery. The arguements used in the confederate south were taken from scripture or at least supported by it. I realize some christians used other parts of the bible to argue against slavery but out of both sides...the confederates made more sense considering the text. The qoutes that support slavery are pretty cut and dry while the ones used to be against it were more broad in nature and takes a lot of 'special' interpretation. You would think that an all knowing and loving god would take a little more care to make the issue more clear like actaully saying that slavery is wrong and not to own people...easily could have made into the 10 commandments. So for those that say slavery is scripture based, they kinda have a point.
I realize this comes down to interpretation but again its not hard to see where the proponents of slavery get their arguements in the bible.
Keep in mind that all knowing and all loving are just descriptions people use to describe God. He/she/it ain't bound to our little abstractions. This bleeds into points I've made elsewhere. If you accept that an eternal being is responsible for the existence of everything then everything is in its place exactly as it is meant to be, always. With that you have to accept that the Bible itself is a compendium of work written by human beings and therefore you will see inconsistencies and irregularities. The key thing to understand is that this is intentional. Everything is intentional.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:04 PM #30
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Which is why phrases like, "God is good" is redundant and meaningless. Of course He is "good." God writes the code for "goodness" and it is what he says it is. So people are really just saying, "God is how God is." His holy moral code seems to be in opposition to human empathy in some areas, and what many people (Even self identifying Christians) hold in their "moral compasses." For example, gay thoughts/actions are immoral according to the Bible. Most people today can't come up with any coherent reasoning as to why such a thing would be "wrong," other than it is written so in a book people have already decided is infallible/truth. Same sort of story for not eating shellfish or not wearing rags of different cloths or whatever. Nonsensical to the human mind, but it's written, so it must be accepted. This can also be related to the problem of evil.

So, if a god exists, we can still judge Him according to our reason/moral sentiments, but of course, biblical believers will claim that humans are flawed and therfore inept at knowing right/wrong. Maybe 2 year olds dying screaming in fires really is part of a plan of greater good. Maybe the raping and torture of teenage girls is, at the very least, and acceptable occurrence for a "loving" and "perfectly good" master. Maybe His creation of us gives Him the right to treat us however he wishes, and subject us to whatever he wills. But if this is the case, then terms like love, kind, good, and right mean things entirely different than how we mean them in usage amongst eachother. If we are to support the actions of a god, no matter our level of agreement with them, then "good" becomes synonymous with "obedient."

I personally orefer to do what my empathy/reasoning leads me to believe to be good/right, rather than do what some paper says I am commanded to do, soley on that basis. I rather feed the sick/hungry to ease their suffering, as opposed to just because I was told to by a figure of authority.

Of course, if I knew without a doubt that God existed, and I would be cast into Hell for eternity if I didn't get with the program, then I would likely be less principled and fall right into line. But I would still think it a beautiful story if a stronger man than I would defy God on moral issues such as those listed above, standing true to his moral compass despite the known consequences. And if I would be punished for that, then I never had a shot at salvation anyway. I can't control what the circumstances He put me in cause me to think/believe. I was doomed upon creation.

Typed this on my phone while watching the US vs. Germany game. Hopefully it was somewhat close to coherent/relevant.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:09 PM #31
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More to the point of this thread, I think the world would be just fine, perhaps even "better" by most objective measures if it were without organized religions like Islam and Christianity, as well as other supernatural beliefs/myths. But it isn't anything worth extrrminating by any means. However, it's influence on the lives of those outside the group should certainly be lessened, imo.
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:37 PM #32
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Okay, i though of an example. Slavery. From what I have read, the bible in my opinion, condones slavery. The arguements used in the confederate south were taken from scripture or at least supported by it. I realize some christians used other parts of the bible to argue against slavery but out of both sides...the confederates made more sense considering the text. The qoutes that support slavery are pretty cut and dry while the ones used to be against it were more broad in nature and takes a lot of 'special' interpretation. You would think that an all knowing and loving god would take a little more care to make the issue more clear like actaully saying that slavery is wrong and not to own people...easily could have made into the 10 commandments. So for those that say slavery is scripture based, they kinda have a point.
I realize this comes down to interpretation but again its not hard to see where the proponents of slavery get their arguements in the bible.
That's the problem with most organized churches even today, is that they tend to pick and choose what they want or overly emphasize their interpretation of the text than to just read it. They often pull a single scripture from the context and apply it to whatever they want. The general concept of slavery in the bible typically more a concept of being indebted to someone than being racially oppressed. Some translations actually use the word "bondservant" which has much different implications than slavery.

I'm sure the South glossed over Exodus 21:16
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16 “He who [a]kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.
I have never done a full exegesis on the topic, but I can tell you without question the bible speaks FAR more to slavery as indebtedness than oppression. The only place I'm aware, off the top of my head, that people were oppressed otherwise is in Exodus and God freed them.

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More to the point of this thread, I think the world would be just fine, perhaps even "better" by most objective measures if it were without organized religions like Islam and Christianity, as well as other supernatural beliefs/myths. But it isn't anything worth extrrminating by any means. However, it's influence on the lives of those outside the group should certainly be lessened, imo.
The seething hatred for Christianity is really... a bit misdirected.

Quote:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Mahatma Gandhi
It's tradition and people overemphasizing their ideas over what scripture teaches that leads to such a negative view. I said earlier that I am a Christian... The biggest struggle I had in getting to that point personally, was the hypocrisy in the church. If you are forced to attend church enough you'll hear what the bible says. At some point most people will find some discontinuity between HOW something is being taught and your personal interpretation of the text. For instance, southern baptists tend to teach that drinking alcohol is wrong and neglect to recall that Jesus' first miracle involved wine. They usually counter with some nonsense about the wine being weak, but if you actually read what's there the people at the wedding talked about the wine He made being "the good stuff." That said, my personally belief is that the issue is excess. The reason I don't claim to be a good Christian is that at some point I may be convicted otherwise and be forced to reevaluate my stance... I feel like people are always works in progress. If our goal is to emulate the perfect example Christ set and did things out of love instead of condemnation, more people would see that the message of the bible is not a book to beat people down with.

IDK, a lot of this is my perspective.
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:37 PM #33
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Keep in mind that all knowing and all loving are just descriptions people use to describe God. He/she/it ain't bound to our little abstractions. This bleeds into points I've made elsewhere. If you accept that an eternal being is responsible for the existence of everything then everything is in its place exactly as it is meant to be, always. With that you have to accept that the Bible itself is a compendium of work written by human beings and therefore you will see inconsistencies and irregularities. The key thing to understand is that this is intentional. Everything is intentional.
Yes I know but that wasnt quite my point...i dont think an eternal being is responsible for the existance of everything so to me it only matters whats written in the bible because people around me tend to think its real. This example was for my earlier question 'What happens when you come across something that is completly counter to the text of the bible but you know to be untrue or wrong?" Slavery by even a liberal reading of the bible is okay but most today do not think so. Going back to what is considered doctrinally sound...how does a christian say that slavery is wrong according to the bible when its clearly not the case?
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:51 PM #34
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That's the problem with most organized churches even today, is that they tend to pick and choose what they want or overly emphasize their interpretation of the text than to just read it. They often pull a single scripture from the context and apply it to whatever they want. The general concept of slavery in the bible typically more a concept of being indebted to someone than being racially oppressed. Some translations actually use the word "bondservant" which has much different implications than slavery.

I'm sure the South glossed over Exodus 21:16


I have never done a full exegesis on the topic, but I can tell you without question the bible speaks FAR more to slavery as indebtedness than oppression. The only place I'm aware, off the top of my head, that people were oppressed otherwise is in Exodus and God freed them.

When it gives instructions as to how you can beat your 'bondservant' i dont think it matters much what you call it...its still owning another person, racially motivated or not.



The seething hatred for Christianity is really... a bit misdirected.
How do you interperate this as such?


It's tradition and people overemphasizing their ideas over what scripture teaches that leads to such a negative view. I said earlier that I am a Christian... The biggest struggle I had in getting to that point personally, was the hypocrisy in the church. If you are forced to attend church enough you'll hear what the bible says. At some point most people will find some discontinuity between HOW something is being taught and your personal interpretation of the text. For instance, southern baptists tend to teach that drinking alcohol is wrong and neglect to recall that Jesus' first miracle involved wine. They usually counter with some nonsense about the wine being weak, but if you actually read what's there the people at the wedding talked about the wine He made being "the good stuff." That said, my personally belief is that the issue is excess. The reason I don't claim to be a good Christian is that at some point I may be convicted otherwise and be forced to reevaluate my stance... I feel like people are always works in progress. If our goal is to emulate the perfect example Christ set and did things out of love instead of condemnation, more people would see that the message of the bible is not a book to beat people down with.

IDK, a lot of this is my perspective.
Some things can only be interpreted in so many ways. Also religions, read that as the big three, do not bother me when people want to have their own views on what their books say as long as they dont push it on others either in society or in laws.
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:22 PM #35
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Some things can only be interpreted in so many ways. Also religions, read that as the big three, do not bother me when people want to have their own views on what their books say as long as they dont push it on others either in society or in laws.
At certain points, such as abortion there's no real way around a disagreement. At what point the obligation of the government to protects it's citizens takes affect is one that will probably never go uncontested. This is not the politics section, but I'm not sure the government should have the word "marriage" on the books either. I'm sure you feel me voting my convictions is pushing it on you, just as much as I believe you voting your convictions is pushing it on me. At the end of the day we can both do our part in letting the governmental system do what it was designed to do and we can still live in relative harmony.



As for the slavery thing... you're doing exactly what I cautioned against by jumping around in context. In those days corporal punishment for an "indentured servant" was an acceptable practice, much like you would do for a kid. I don't claim to have all the answers, but the idea that "owning another person" is always wrong is a strange sentiment. The concept you're not really getting is this... Do you have a credit card with a balance? If you were to lose your job and couldn't pay this debt, then you would have to go work for Visa until your balance is paid. There was no bankruptcy protection. I fail to see how that is immoral?
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:51 PM #36
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Yes I know but that wasnt quite my point...i dont think an eternal being is responsible for the existance of everything so to me it only matters whats written in the bible because people around me tend to think its real. This example was for my earlier question 'What happens when you come across something that is completly counter to the text of the bible but you know to be untrue or wrong?" Slavery by even a liberal reading of the bible is okay but most today do not think so. Going back to what is considered doctrinally sound...how does a christian say that slavery is wrong according to the bible when its clearly not the case?
Nothing happens, it's up to the individuals to decide and that's the point. You have people who care about doctrine and therefore treat the bible as a rule book. You have people who don't care about doctrine and treat the Bible as a guidebook for living life and providing meaning purpose and context within it. The latter is the most balanced view and oddly, the more common way people participate in religion.

If I were a Christian and you asked me why I don't support slavery or why I don't stone my disobedient daughters because it says so in the bible my exact response would be: "Yeah so? That **** was written by people living in another time defined by a different set of circumstances which their lives were adapted to. Focusing too much on the details misses the crucial lessons of how one ought to live life which includes all matters of the heart and will."

If you need a contemporary analogy. Not all believers in the civil religion of Progress believe in technological singularities, zero point energy, sun in a bottle fusion reactors, planetary colonization, star trekking, disembodied consciousness wisking around in space or even God like AI. There are many many more examples but the crucial point is not in the details of how believers see mans ultimate destiny, but how they visualize the outcome of the faith in technological, economic and moral progress. If I were to probe a believer about this stuff they could easily say, nah man I don't believe in that stuff. I wouldn't blame them but denying the details doesn't mean the fundamental narratives ideals and meaning inherent within each example is lost. No sir.

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Old 06-26-2014, 03:21 PM #37
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At certain points, such as abortion there's no real way around a disagreement. At what point the obligation of the government to protects it's citizens takes affect is one that will probably never go uncontested. This is not the politics section, but I'm not sure the government should have the word "marriage" on the books either. I'm sure you feel me voting my convictions is pushing it on you, just as much as I believe you voting your convictions is pushing it on me. At the end of the day we can both do our part in letting the governmental system do what it was designed to do and we can still live in relative harmony.

Its more what people base their convictions on that I dont like. Case in point the bible...people feel free to pick and choose what they follow in it. If someone has a different idea of what a law should be thats fine but when it come down to, "its in the bible", thats isnt a good answer when the law effects everyone.



As for the slavery thing... you're doing exactly what I cautioned against by jumping around in context. In those days corporal punishment for an "indentured servant" was an acceptable practice, much like you would do for a kid. I don't claim to have all the answers, but the idea that "owning another person" is always wrong is a strange sentiment. The concept you're not really getting is this... Do you have a credit card with a balance? If you were to lose your job and couldn't pay this debt, then you would have to go work for Visa until your balance is paid. There was no bankruptcy protection. I fail to see how that is immoral?
You really think thats how things went down? It was all just people oweing others money? Your example of a credit card balance is not the same thing. We are looking at this from two different angles. Oweing and owning are two different things. You have answered my question though.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:38 PM #38
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Nothing happens, it's up to the individuals to decide and that's the point. You have people who care about doctrine and therefore treat the bible as a rule book. You have people who don't care about doctrine and treat the Bible as a guidebook for living life and providing meaning purpose and context within it. The latter is the most balanced view and oddly, the more common way people participate in religion.

If I were a Christian and you asked me why I don't support slavery or why I don't stone my disobedient daughters because it says so in the bible my exact response would be: "Yeah so? That **** was written by people living in another time defined by a different set of circumstances which their lives were adapted to. Focusing too much on the details misses the crucial lessons of how one ought to live life which includes all matters of the heart and will."

If you need a contemporary analogy. Not all believers in the civil religion of Progress believe in technological singularities, zero point energy, sun in a bottle fusion reactors, planetary colonization, star trekking, disembodied consciousness wisking around in space or even God like AI. There are many many more examples but the crucial point is not in the details of how believers see mans ultimate destiny, but how they visualize the outcome of the faith in technological, economic and moral progress. If I were to probe a believer about this stuff they could easily say, nah man I don't believe in that stuff. I wouldn't blame them but denying the details doesn't mean the fundamental narratives ideals and meaning inherent within each example is lost. No sir.
The people who treat the bible as a rule book are the ones i take issue with when it intrudes on my life. Whats odd is that the bible is not written in a "take what you want from this and leave the rest" way. I realize this is how most (currently) take it which i think has more to do human nature than how the book was written.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:54 PM #39
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Its more what people base their convictions on that I dont like. Case in point the bible...people feel free to pick and choose what they follow in it. If someone has a different idea of what a law should be thats fine but when it come down to, "its in the bible", thats isnt a good answer when the law effects everyone.
What difference does it make where I derive my moral OR political convictions? How does that make them less valid? Does the bible ever explicitly say that "thou shalt not abort?" No. There are various scriptures that describe the sanctity of life and even some others that point to the value of an unborn child. You could interpret those several ways, but the democratic process ultimately determines what becomes law. If my views represent the majority then it becomes law; if not it doesn't. Even if my ideas did represent the majority then there are balances in place to protect the view(s) of the minority.


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You really think thats how things went down? It was all just people oweing others money? Your example of a credit card balance is not the same thing. We are looking at this from two different angles. Oweing and owning are two different things. You have answered my question though.
It is EXACTLY the same thing. People SOLD THEMSELVES INTO SLAVERY multiple times in scripture. In Proverbs, there is a scripture that says that we are slaves to our debtors. Some of the verses in Exodus that deal with slavery are about thieves stealing and having to repay their debts with interest... if they cannot repay then they are made slaves to repay the debt. God's people were slaves multiple times and so far as I can tell, those are the only accounts of racial oppression (in Egypt especially) .
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:22 PM #40
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The people who treat the bible as a rule book are the ones i take issue with when it intrudes on my life. Whats odd is that the bible is not written in a "take what you want from this and leave the rest" way. I realize this is how most (currently) take it which i think has more to do human nature than how the book was written.
Ok but that's part of human nature not to mention most ideals, religions and moral philosophies are incompatible. The best we can hope for is finding some common ground, though it's foolish to think that once found it will always be enough. Basically I'm telling you to suck it up.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:35 AM #41
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Ok but that's part of human nature not to mention most ideals, religions and moral philosophies are incompatible. The best we can hope for is finding some common ground, though it's foolish to think that once found it will always be enough. Basically I'm telling you to suck it up.
okay...
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:05 PM #42
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With that you have to accept that the Bible itself is a compendium of work written by human beings and therefore you will see inconsistencies and irregularities.
I thought that Christians claimed the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
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