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Old 06-12-2014, 03:21 PM #1
nFbReaper
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Spyder Imagine Firing Issues

I got my Spyder Imagine in like 2004 when I was about ten years old. I played with it for a while, and slowly began upgrading it. I got a shorter neck feed, a new barrel, more comfortable grip, a better trigger, and the ACS (Anti-chop) bolt. This bolt I believe has led to one of my two issues.

1) With my old board, my gun wasn't releasing the bolt. I figured it was due to the battery, so I tried using a plain 9v instead of the 9.6v. In the process I lost my 9.6v and the cable to recharge it, so I was stuck with using just 9v batteries. I quickly realized after reading forums and searching the internet, that the original spyder board often didn't work properly with plain 9v batteries.
-So to fix this, I looked up the price for a replacement battery. I found out it was around 30 dollars or so, but while doing research on how to fix the issue, I found that an upgraded board could work with a 9v battery, and the virtue board, being like, ten years later, came down so much in price, it was only like 35 dollars to get, so for 5 extra dollars, I thought I would upgrade my board and fixed the problem.
-This ended up working, but the reason I wrote so much about the issue is because I didn't know if it would effect the other issue I have.

2) With the new ACS bolt, I've been able to shoot around 240 fps. When I was younger I didn't really care or think about how to fix it, but now that I'm back into paintballing and am planning on joining a rookie tournament, I want my gun firing at the optimal velocity, which is 275-285 at my park. The reason I believe the issue is from the ACS bolt is because it doesn't have O-rings, so it loses air when the bolt gets pushed back. I use HPA by the way. To combat this, I figured out I had three options. Buy a regulator, buy shivs to push the velocity spring (main spring) in more, or buy a spring kit. I went with the spring kit because it was the cheapest, and after reading forums of other similar issues, it seemed to work the best at increasing velocity.
-Well, I got my spring kit, and instantly went with the stiffest spring. The problem with this spring was that when firing the gun, the board couldn't charge enough for the capacitor to push the sear into, to release the striker to fire the bolt and so on. It would click, but wouldn't do anything unless I physically pushed on the capacitor and then the bolt would release. I first tried changing the battery, but it still didn't do anything, so I put the old battery back in.
-So I went to the next spring. This spring would fire a few shots normally, then click just like with the hardest spring. I would have to wait a few seconds and click it again. If I fired slow it released the bolt, but not when I sped up. I thought I would try putting a new battery in again, so when I went out to fire the gun with this spring, it worked!! But I came into my third issue.
3) With the new spring, my gun would double fire like every time I pulled the trigger. But it would be so fast that the first shot would shoot a ball, but the second shot would shoot air. I thought that it was perhaps mechanical bounce, but after fiddling with the anti mechancial bounce and debounce setting, I realized that this was not the case. I read on the forums that double shots are often caused by too stiff of a spring... which really sucks because I need a stiffer spring to increase my velocity, so I went down to the next stiffest spring, which is slightly stiffer than the original spring I was shooting. It shot fine on this setting. Normal, actually. But the velocity wasn't any higher. So at the end of the day, I didn't get anywhere!

So what do you guys think I should do? Is there a way to use the stiffer spring but not get that double fire shot? Should I put in my original bolt and deal with chopping balls all the time again? I don't really feel like buying any more things. If I had the resources I would drill eyes into my gun and use the virtue boards eyes and my original bolt, but I can't do that. I don't want to chop balls, but I need my gun shooting higher than 240 fps.

Sorry about my long post, and it's my first day on the forum, so hopefully I'm posting this in the right section, I couldn't find a troublshooting or maintenance part of the forum, so I just posted it under the Spyder section. I love my spyder btw, its fun using an old gun that has been upgraded and plus it's mine, there's something about it which makes me want to fix it and use it. I have the option to play with like an Ion, my brother left it before he moved away after college, but I'd rather use my Upgraded spyder than an Ion.
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Old 06-12-2014, 03:38 PM #2
nFbReaper
 
 
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Oops, I didn't push the capacitor to make it work, I pushed that other silver thing the capacitor sends it's charge to which pushes the sear.

Would wearing out the second stiffer spring help at all with the double shot firing thing?
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:07 PM #3
Ahura_Mazda
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Well its good to see that you have done research and been thorough in your attempts to fix the problem, kudos

You said you are wondering if you are getting blow back with the ACS bolt, it should be pretty easy to test, since enough blow back to cause a drop like that would pop the lid off of your hopper. You can open the lid yourself and watch as you shoot if the paintballs popcorn with every shot, if so you have blow back and could be the issue or part of it.

Part of me wonders if you should try working from the other end- where the valve that the hammer strikes is. Maybe take it apart and make sure that the valve stem slides easy and that the spring behind it is ok.

Just thinking out loud, but I know my old spyder did some funky things when on compressed air, because of the higher pressures I believe. The imagine doesn't have a regulator, so the air that is reaching the valve is around what the tank regulator output is (normal regs are around 800 I believe), slightly lower because of the room for expansion in the forgrip and the expansion chamber. It would be interesting to see the effects of a low pressure reg (around 500 psi) or maybe even co2, even though I am not a big fan of co2.

Try out some of those things and let me know what happens.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:43 PM #4
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Hi!

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try them out as soon as possible. Hopefully in a little bit. I don't remember the paintballs 'popcorning' when I shot it, so, I'll check to make sure, but right now, I don't think that is the issue.

I did test it with HPA and CO2, although at the time I didn't have a chronograph to check the speed, I didn't notice an improvement with the CO2. I'll have to wait till tuesday to test the gun out with a chronograph again.

I'll look at the manual, but what exactly is the valve stem? I know what the valve is, but it doesn't move does it? I thought it was screwed in? What exactly should I look for in that part of the gun? I've only ever taken that area apart once.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:16 PM #5
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Go ahead and look online at an exploded diagram to get an idea of the parts involved with the valve. The valve stem or pin is what is pushed in by the hammer and lets gas escape, shooting the ball and cocking the hammer and by extension the bolt back. That pin has to move and if it's having a hard time that could be your issue. I have seen where people will also put a lightened valve spring (holds the pin forward) and that's an option although you said you don't wanna buy anymore parts. If you didn't really notice a difference with HPA versus co2 I wouldn't bother investigating it further then. Don't worry too much about not having taken the valve apart, it's relatively simple. Lube the stem and make sure it's clean.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:39 PM #6
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Ok, so I took apart the gun, and changed the O-ring on the striker which looked ok, but had a slight section taken off of it, and I changed the back O-ring on the valve which looked scratched and slightly worn. Besides that, nothing looked worn or super dirty. The cup seal looked fine and without scratches, the spring was ok, the valve seemed fine, and the pin had no issues as far as I could tell.

After replacing the O-rings that looked scratched and cleaning the gun, I put lubricant on the striker, bolt, valve, and the pin.
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:43 PM #7
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If my velocity still ends up being low, I might try a lighter valve spring. I'd rather not keep spending money, but If I need to, to fix the thing I will. I'm not sure which one to buy, or where to get it though. Do you think a Shim kit might be worth purchasing also to try?
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Old 06-14-2014, 12:07 AM #8
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The shims would only have the same effect as a stiffer spring, which you have already bought so I think that would be redundant and going down a path you have already been down. Just a random question, what kind of lube are you using?
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:49 PM #9
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Gold Cup Lubricant. Last night was the first time I have lubed it in 5-10 years :/ . I have only played with the marker a handful of times since then though.
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:50 PM #10
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I'll have to wait till Tuesday to see how it's shooting. I ran out of HPA and Co2, or at least I hope I ran out of Co2, otherwise I put something together wrong in my marker because the bolt sputters and doesn't recock or shoot a ball. Pretty sure it's just out of Co2. Hopeing something I did will have increased the velocity at all, otherwise I'm going to test what happens when I put in my old bolt. If it shoots fine with my old bolt, then we know that the issue is with my ACS bolt, right?
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:50 PM #11
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Let us know what happens.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:30 PM #12
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I went out with the medium spring (the heaviest spring that still allowed the gun to at least shoot) and my gun ended up shoot hot, like 300-310. I lowered my velocity to about 280. The problem now is, when I shot, my gun is extremely loud. Like, you know how loud it is when you shoot the marker without any balls, in? It sounded like that. Also, I chopped a few balls with my Anti Chop Bolt in, which is weird because it actually use to do a good job of preventing chops.

I tried putting in my old bolt, and it indeed shot faster than the ACS bolt, but even when I changed the velocity back to 280ish, it still sounded really loud. I played a few games with it.

I noticed the accuracy was terrible, presumably because I broke balls in the chamber and the paint was messing up the accuracy. One thing I liked about the Spyder was that it was actually pretty accurate. It still shot really loud, and sometimes the bolt would shoot but not cock itself back at all. Sometimes my gun would click and not release the bolt. Most of the time if I were shooting slow it worked, but it was loud.

So, after about a game, I realized I went through the entire HPA tank. I had to fill it up again. I tried lowering my velocity to where the gun didn't shoot super loud, and it sounded normal again, but I had to go as low as like 240 again for it to shoot normal. I went halfway in between and played with the velocity of around 260, but it didn't really help, I still had issues with it shooting too loud, not recocking sometimes, and it clicking and not firing when I tried to shoot somewhat fast.

I switched guns halfway through the day because of the issues.

What today told me is that my theory on the Anti Chop bolt lowering my velocity is correct, but even with the normal bolt I had issues. So there must be another issue unrelated then, right?

The clicking I feel like might be due to the 9v not being strong enough to release the bolt when there's too much tension being put on the striker from a heavier spring. Even with another board. It works somewhat, but not consistent.

The bolt uncocking was an issue I think with the Anti Chop bolt, I've read it's common for Anti Chop bolts to do that when it's preventing a jam.

I didn't chop a single ball with my normal stock bolt by the way. I didn't try shoot that fast because of the clicking problem. I kinda would snap and shoot one or two, and do that again. Paints expensive anyways and I'm trying to conserve a little paint. I'm joining a Tournament on Sunday, paint will be half off.

I think I mentioned this before, but I read that sometimes if the spring is too stiff, it will double fire, which is a problem I have had with a higher tension spring, although with that spring I would have been shooting way over 300fps. But I wonder if it's still a similar issue, if I lower the velocity (lowering the tension) my gun shoots fine, perfectly at like 240. It's frustrating, I don't know what to do. Maybe in a few years I can upgrade to a better gun, and in the meantime I can use my brothers Ion who doesn't live here anymore anyways, but it just sucks having a gun that doesn't work properly.

I'm not sure how much you can help me, but I really do appreciate the effort and the tips.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:33 PM #13
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Oh, I'd like to add that I went through the entire tank in one game, but there was no leaks which I could tell. It was also filled up to the 3, although it does go up to the six, so I guess, technically, I went through half a tank in one game, but on the other hand, I only shot like half a hopper, so, something is definitely wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's connected to the gun shooting extremely loud when it's at a velocity higher than 240ish fps.
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:49 PM #14
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If your tank is recommended to only fill to 3k then it's correct to say you used a whole tank.

So when you aired it up and shot with a fresh tank your velocity was high... Do you have a lighter spring than you used (you said it was the medium spring) that you can use? By cleaning and lubing you may have fixed part of the issue and you may use a lighter spring that will help with your sear not tripping. Was it a new battery? And I forget but does the imagine recommend those 9.6 v spyder batteries?

It sounds like with the increased sound, and inefficiency that there's more air being released with each shot. Do you happen to know the bore of the barrel and size of the paint? It almost seems like you were overboring and that can waste air as it requires more to get up to the desired velocity.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:12 PM #15
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I'm shooting .68i caliber paintballs, and my barrel was made for that caliber ball. Just to double check, I put a ball into the barrel, and it fit pretty snug, it didn't roll around, if I pushed it it moved somewhat easily, and trying to blow the ball out of it was difficult.

There is a distinct difference between when it's shooting too loud, and when it's shooting normally. Like, as I lower the velocity, it'll be shooting loud, loud, still the same volume, still loud, all of the sudden quiet and normal sounding.

I do have a lighter spring but it's about the same tension as my stock spring. The only difference is, it's slightly longer, so it would probably cause more tension and increased velocity then my stock spring.

The stock Spyder Imagine board recommended the 9.6v batteries, but I read that the Virtue Spyder board, which is what the gun is using now, doesn't require the 9.6v battery, just a normal 9v. It shoots fine with the 9v unless the tension is too high on the spring.
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Old 06-29-2014, 06:38 PM #16
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Try using a light valve spring and a light main spring combination along with the stock bolt due to it having o rings. Now with that said you'll have to tune. I might have over read your posts but I didn't see that you had a regulator but anytime you make spring adjustments I'd recommend using a regulator versus the spring adjuster on the back. Speaking of the spring adjuster, make sure you back that adjuster all the way back to make sure there is no extra tension on the main spring. Let me know how that goes
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:30 PM #17
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Sorry, it's been a while. I got frustrated and have been using a different gun in the mean time. I bought a spring kit, however it didn't come with valve springs. I played with the stock bolt, and it shot at a higher velocity than the ACS, however it still had the same issues. That being, it shoots super loud until under a certain velocity, of which, is way under the ideal velocity of 285 at my field. It also does not shoot if I try to shoot too fast, however, that may be because the board should still use the 9.6v battery instead of the 9.v batteries I tried using it with. Even though it works, I think it just drains the battery really quick. I'm not sure how much more effort I want to put into the gun to fix it. It's an old gun and I don't really want to put that much more money in it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:48 PM #18
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IMO it sounds like your capacitor is bad... Is it buldgung on top of the cap? If so then you need to replace it. It a 4 dollar fix for a new capacitor. Hopefully you have some soldiering experience or a friend.
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Old 09-26-2014, 10:26 PM #19
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Maybe, I'll have to check. I actually have replaced the capacitor before on the gun though.
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