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Old 06-09-2014, 02:09 PM #22
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What are you basing all of this on?
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:15 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
How do you define of "existence?"
The difference between thing and nothing.

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Are there varying degrees of existence?
Depends on your abstraction. For mine, it's a yes or no question.

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How/ where/ within Whom does the spirit exist?
Christianity in general seems to state that they are created things. There is at least some consensus that the soul is a metaphysical thing. If you're asking me, the answer is irreducibly subjective. Go find out for yourself and experience will answer the question one way or another.

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Accepting God as creator already assumes a temporal beginning as defined in reference to Him.
Only for created things not possessing the quality "eternal."

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I don't agree that being omnipotent is a characteristic of God's eternal nature, however I could easier accept the inverse.
That's on you. I look at like being outside of time essentially places you outside of created things as well. Any ability to act on created things is pretty damned near omnipotent in my opinion.

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Old 06-09-2014, 03:10 PM #24
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What are you basing all of this on?
?

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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Only for created things not possessing the quality "eternal."
This is the same type of circular argument that exists on whether time exists before the big bang. Since it's a relative measure that doesn't particularly make sense for spiritual beings (created by God), then I'm suggesting the unit of measure for "time" for one's spirit would be measured in within God's infinite existence. Creation is subject to its creator.

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I look at like being outside of time essentially places you outside of created things as well. Any ability to act on created things is pretty damned near omnipotent in my opinion.
How about "since God is omniscient He isn't accountable to time or natural law?" I believe that is more correct than "because God isn't accountable to time or natural law, He is omniscient" which is what I take exception to.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:17 PM #25
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This is the same type of circular argument that exists on whether time exists before the big bang. Since it's a relative measure that doesn't particularly make sense for spiritual beings (created by God), then I'm suggesting the unit of measure for "time" for one's spirit would be measured in within God's infinite existence. Creation is subject to its creator.
Did God exist before the big bang?
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:44 PM #26
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I would like to think so.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:48 PM #27
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Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
This is the same type of circular argument that exists on whether time exists before the big bang. Since it's a relative measure that doesn't particularly make sense for spiritual beings (created by God), then I'm suggesting the unit of measure for "time" for one's spirit would be measured in within God's infinite existence. Creation is subject to its creator.

How about "since God is omniscient He isn't accountable to time or natural law?" I believe that is more correct than "because God isn't accountable to time or natural law, He is omniscient" which is what I take exception to.
Let me try a simple analogy.

Take a piece of paper and draw a **** load of dots on it. Each dot represents a moment in Bob's life. For you, every dot exists simultaneously right there on the paper. For Bob, each dot is experienced linearly and relative.

God isn't omniscient because he's really smart, he's omniscient because it's all right there simultaneously. The big bang is just a dot. You could also make the argument that God is omniscient because He drew all the dots in the first place. The difference is pretty irrelevant on the whole.

The most correct way of putting it: " God is not accountable to time or natural law because he is outside of time and natural law is one way of understanding divine will from the limited perspectives of beings in time."
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:33 PM #28
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I did use the wrong omni word... I meant omnipotent not omniscient. I do, however, have no objections to the last phrase. It is well said IMO. I would also think the Christian perspective is that God was the artist.

What I am personally unsure of is that the concept of born-again places Christians alive "IN Christ." I am unsure of how literal that is supposed to be interpreted. It is a recurring theme in scripture, in particular the new testament, where "in" is used instead of "through."

For instance:

Romans 6:23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Quote:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Quote:
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5:17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
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17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

2 Corinthians 5:21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Quote:
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:59 PM #29
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I don't agree that being omnipotent is a characteristic of God's eternal nature, however I could easier accept the inverse.
I was caught a bit off-guard here.

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What are you basing all of this on?
But we're wandering a bit from the original point in question.

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Sempiternal beings experience time, there just is no end. Eternal beings do not experience time. It seems you are implying that when people die, they go to heaven and essentially become God. Which is - uh- interesting..
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That's a pretty far-gone conclusion... If you accept the Christian viewpoint that it is spirit that lives on; what is driving your conclusion that spirit knows time?
If a spirit transcends time and becomes eternal in heaven, how does it not dwell there before death?
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:44 PM #30
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Not sure what you're asking specifically, but even still I'm not sure I have an answer. I would probably suggest that physical death marks the passage, but I'm not sure that's entirely scripture-backed. There's judgment at some point and I believe that since it's an account of your life it implies death.

Why would it catch you off guard? As stated, "all powerful" is a subset of eternal. At best, they're independent IMO or more accurately, I believe because God is all powerful he is eternal. His latest phrase is much more agreeable to me and it is just a matter of classification and doesn't matter much anyway.
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:13 PM #31
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Not sure what you're asking specifically, but even still I'm not sure I have an answer. I would probably suggest that physical death marks the passage, but I'm not sure that's entirely scripture-backed. There's judgment at some point and I believe that since it's an account of your life it implies death.
So why do you require that the spirit exists outside of time?
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:27 PM #32
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What about the problem of sempiternality? At some point the residents of heaven are going to have said all that can be said to one another as well as having done all that can be done within whatever parameters the afterlife grants a person. Absolute rest is bound to happen and when that occurs really the only thing left to do to is to die. Otherwise sempiternal life is the equivalent of being a box on the shelf of a convenience store.
I don't require anything. I don't accept this idea on multiple levels one of which being the concept of time being relevant. Another is that "all can be done" when you're chillin with the creator.
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:03 PM #33
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I did use the wrong omni word... I meant omnipotent not omniscient. I do, however, have no objections to the last phrase. It is well said IMO. I would also think the Christian perspective is that God was the artist.

What I am personally unsure of is that the concept of born-again places Christians alive "IN Christ." I am unsure of how literal that is supposed to be interpreted. It is a recurring theme in scripture, in particular the new testament, where "in" is used instead of "through."

For instance:

Romans 6:23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)



1 Corinthians 15:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)



2 Corinthians 5:17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)



2 Corinthians 5:21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Ah gotcha.

Yeah as to the rest. I dunno.
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:04 PM #34
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I don't require anything.
If that was true, you and I wouldn't be talking.
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Old 06-10-2014, 12:07 AM #35
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What is anti-Calvinist? You don't believe in some part of TULIP?

Sempiternality is kind of irrelevant... Without the concept of time there is no boredom so to speak and if you already accept God as omnipotent then He can provide enough entertainment.

As for evil... Well as a Christian I assume you accept moral absolutes. Most people here don't so it's impossible to establish a common ground to even be able to define "evil" let alone solve it.

Good and evil don't require each other to exist. Contrast is easier for people to understand because it provides a cleaner context. It's this fundamental misunderstanding that allows people to view the devil as God's equal.
Zoiks.

Three for three. Someone who knows what he's talking about.

I will push back on two points, not in order:

1. The conception of time-less-ness (deliberated hyphenation) in the realm of the Divine is no longer seriously held, at least not in scholarly theological circles. However, your point about the irrelevance of sempiternal exhaustion could not be more spot-on. The very concept (at least, as it has been expressed here) is based on a relatively common (a)temporal category mistake.

2. Note that Calvin did not subscribe to TULIP in the modern sense. Pity what some of his descendants have done to what was otherwise a most impressive theological edifice (and for the record, I'm not a Calvinist, even after Calvin's fashion).
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:50 PM #36
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I don't require anything. I don't accept this idea on multiple levels one of which being the concept of time being relevant. Another is that "all can be done" when you're chillin with the creator.
Sounds comfortable.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:09 PM #37
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To me it seems, for the theist, that anything we can imagine and even what we can't is possible with god, so there's no reason to worry about frivolities like "will we get bored in heaven?" The rules of our universe don't necessarily apply on a supernatural level, so I don't know why a theist would bother engaging in these debates, except to attempt to justify their belief to nonbelievers in a rational way. Maybe they just want to have their cake and eat it too, to feel they are right and be able to prove it to others.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:13 PM #38
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In regards to the original poster: the problem of "evil" is only a problem for christians who believe in an all loving god who allows evil in the world. For those who do not share the beliefs of bronze age goat herders it isn't really a problem.
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:06 PM #39
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Hey look the kindergartener troll is back!
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:59 PM #40
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Sorry for the delay guys, been real busy with work lately!! A lot of interesting thoughts here, thank you guys for your input!

I was sort of curious about the intellectual predispositions present on a paintball forum

Regarding being an anti-calvinist, I brought it up because it changes the way you view good and evil, the nature of God and man, and moral culpability in general. As to how anti-calvinist I am..I reject all five sections of TULIP in their entirety, as well as the fundamental philosophical assumptions about the nature of God and man they are based on.

Before I have anything constructive to add on this...I gotta read through and contemplate on what everyone has to say first
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:57 AM #41
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On what biblical basis do you reject the depravity of man?
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:37 PM #42
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What does that matter? Maybe he rejects it for reasons outisde of the bible.
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