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Old 05-19-2014, 07:33 PM #43
the korean1
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Ok looking at mine. I do see where they could be a little softer. So here's a thought. Shim the space between the arm of the detent and the eyepipe. Like using paper or something. To fit in between the indention and the arm of the detent. This will allow the ball to have the initial less contact pressure. This might allow enough to help not crack a ball.

EDIT*-- I added some chards of paper to mine. obviously a difference just by using my finger and pushing a ball in and out of the breech. i will note that it need some more adjustment. because i could flick a ball out of the breech by jaring the the gun.
the chards was two layers. so maybe just one layer or just the right amount of thickness of something else may do the trick in this theory.
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:04 AM #44
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More testing done this week, but unfortunaly I am a bit down by the discoverys.

The NT with modified rubber eyeholder did not make any difference...
Tested my axe with the same result, blowing paint all over.
Tested DM9 with no issues at all
Conclusion: Eyepipe or detents still might ave a role in paintbeaking but it is much more likely to be an issue as a result of bolt speed.

Also I do not belive that flat face or or an extension of the prop shaft is the way to go either. And this is because I have tested the two extreems.
shooting one ball at a time with NT and AXE, both will break paint in both positions of the ball in the breach. (I tested shooting downward with ball resting against detents giving a gap of 2-3mm between bolt and ball. Also tested shooting slightly uppwards with ball resing against bolt face.)
Both guns broke paint in both ball possitions.

I believe there is a slightly over represented amount of ballbreakage if the joint of the ball is positioned in the circumference of the breach and therefor passing the detents at 90 degree angle. This may be because the joint on the balls I tested with was not very good.

So this leads me to think that the NT:s are not hugely different but paint is.
Paint that is brittle at one teperature and humidity might be softer and not so brittle when its a bit warmer and higher humidity.

It also seems to be a bigg difference on breakage with light fast moving bolts.
I will check how the Proto PMR07 does tomorow.
Also I reely need to meassure bolt speed on different guns.


The paint I use for these tests break from knee hight wich is about 1,5 foot. 10 of 10 balls crack and that I think is brittle. It also shoot just fine with the DM9 which just show that it is possible to shoot it.

Last edited by rosakatten : 05-21-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:17 PM #45
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I need to reethink the aproach.
What I want to do now is to meassure the speed of a pendulum hiting a brittle paintball from a height where the paintball does'nt break. (the point right below where it will break)
This is the maximum allowed bolt speed. I then want to messure the bolt speed of NT and DM to see if this theory is true.
If so, I will try to figure out a way to change the bolt speed by the least possible modifications.
It is not an exact theory since it does'nt take in consideration the accelleration but I think it is a good start.
Alternatively, using an air cylinder with a bolt atached to the end. Test higher and higher pressure untill the ball breaks from the accelleration. (not using a barrel or detents or anything). Film the thing with high speed camera and work out acceleration and speed.

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Old 05-21-2014, 01:50 PM #46
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Solid testing. Was you able to check without detents installed?
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:03 PM #47
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Sorry, I did'nt do that today. After the small mods I did to the rubber, they move as intended and I wanted to test if there realy was an issue with them.
I do think that spring loaded delrin detents are a better eay to go butt even the axe has issues so the detents are less of a problem and light bolts with smaller driving o-rings seem to be more problematic.

I will make a quick test without detents tomorrow just to see the difference.
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Solid testing. Was you able to check without detents installed?
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:47 PM #48
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DM bolt moves at about 65 psi, NT moves at 110 psi.

Im surprised the Axe blew through the paint as Pro teams like Vicious use Axes with fragile paint.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:47 PM #49
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well agreed possible different detents but is that even feasable?
i mean. that would require milling and eye covers correct?
so for another theory. lets say its the bolt speed.
in the nt animation. input pressure is constant and then spooled air is greater amount. so to slow the bolt down either creat drag or slow spooled air. correct?
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:02 PM #50
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Also, getting insanely super fragile paint to shoot out of any gun will be a challenge. I dont think the NT will ever shoot paint as brittle as knee height. Id settle for hip height.

There is only so much you can do with the NT.
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:12 PM #51
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Lol settle for hip height.

Rosakatten maybe you could make a venturi style prop shaft. That doesnt at all hit the ball. Stays on your drilled out allen screw. This may shred the force of air. .If its part of the problem. I'm assuming the pressure during firing sequence is bottle necking and is just too much for fragile paint.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:43 AM #52
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Yes, there is a difference in pressure to operate the movement of the bolt.
This should not necessery be a problem if you control the speed of the bolt.
The Luxe operates at 170-180 Psi, and is not nearly as hard on paint as the NT. AXE is at 160-200 depending on bolt.
Preassure also does not directly say anything about the force of the bolt. You need to knor the area which the force pushes on to know what fore is created with that pressure.
I do not know why the AXE broke paint. I have used it before with paint that break from around 70-100cm height and it did absolutely fine.
What I want to know is what kind of acceleration can a paintball take before it crack.
By testing this it will be easier to check in forehand if the NT will shoot it or just womit the paint all over.
There is not much to change on the NT without changing alot and this is something i don't want to doo because the feel of the NT when shooting is awesome. I don't want to mess that up. Maybe I will make a slightly heavier bolt. that should accelerate slower but maybe some more kick.
I don't want the bolt to feel slow like the LLuxe or DM so it will be tricky.

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DM bolt moves at about 65 psi, NT moves at 110 psi.

Im surprised the Axe blew through the paint as Pro teams like Vicious use Axes with fragile paint.

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Old 05-22-2014, 01:57 PM #53
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Yeah the shot of the NT is really awesome. I'd hate to lose that!

Last thing you want to do is turn it into a DM lol

Were you testing the eye pipe mod paint breakage with stock flow insert or your no insert bolt mod?
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:48 PM #54
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throwing this out there.
what if a second plunger oring was added. the plunger would have to be milled at the furthest point back towards the spool. still in the thickness of the aluminum not to effect the spool. add in a second plunger oring.
so now its resistance on the bolt back and forth. also cutting down a tad on the pressure moving the bolt from the initial spool opening up.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:03 AM #55
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I used my NT11 at MAO the entire weekend with absolutely no issues. Before I did the below fixes, I broke paint ALL THE TIME and it was infuriating. Here is what I did:

1. Replaced my eye-pipe with the newest one (it was cracked and malformed)

2. Completely seated the rubber eye-harness to ensure that the detents recessed appropriately.

3. Installed a blue o-ring on the green bolt insert (effectively pushing the bolt's resting position 1/16" forward, to avoid ball-stack clipping)

4. Installed a smaller orange o-ring for bolt bumper, so that it does not make contact with the can (the o-ring in front of the bolt sail.) This allows you to reduce dwell and overall HPR pressure for the operation of the bolt.

I can now shoot brittle Ultra-Evil paint all weekend with no chops at 295 +/- 0.3 fps at the chrono. At tournaments, I don't chop paint, even while my teammates with Vanquishes/ DM14s/ Luxes chop every now and then.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:32 AM #56
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Can you explain the fourth one, maybe pictures?
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:53 AM #57
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If you check out Rosa's bolt on the first page, you can see that the o-ring in front of the bolt sail is fat and about the same diameter as the bolt sail. This creates a whole bunch more drag on the bolt, requiring you to increase your pressure and/or dwell. Every now and then the o-ring will allow a slip, creating a SUPER fast bolt movement - and a chop/ break.

Pull that fat ugly O-ring off the bolt and replace it with the skinnier orange colored o-ring and you will be able to lower the operating pressure drastically. You will also see a distinctly marked improvement on your chrono fps consistency.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:15 PM #58
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I only tested with the original NT11 bolt and sorted out rubber and detents.
On sunday I will test the bolt with no flow insert.
What I wanted to know was if the paint would shoot in any gun because the NT and AXE both broke this paint like no tomorrow. The DM9 did not.
I might test the DM11 or DM12 to check if the ruber bolt tip makes the bolt harder on paint.

I am thinking of making the bolt longer to maintain the slow moving part of the bolt movement but this requires a bit more machining to make room in the plunger for the bolt. Only a few mm is polssible without redesigning the plunger and transfer of the noid.
Its also much harder to make modifikations of the bolt position on the NT11 due to the valve and back part of the valve.


If there is a problem with small diameter/high airspeed on these bolts I should be able to blow a paintball appart using 8-9 bar and 8-9mm diameter nozzle blowing on a fixed paintball... Wait a minute. How if I calculate the 110psi acting on a surface of 9mm this could then be used to put this load on a paintball on the same surface are to check if the preassure loade is enough to break the paintball... This could help to se which design is more lightly to cause issues
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Yeah the shot of the NT is really awesome. I'd hate to lose that!

Last thing you want to do is turn it into a DM lol

Were you testing the eye pipe mod paint breakage with stock flow insert or your no insert bolt mod?
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:20 PM #59
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The orange bumper is what everyone should be using anyway since it's a stock nt11 part (no trick there) That oring should never cause drag since it's not meant to touch the can, it's only a cushion on the forward stroke.

If any nt11 owner doesn't have that orange bumper it's cause the previous owner had no idea it was changed since the nt10, about 3 years ago.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:20 PM #60
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I have all these on my NT11 from the beginning. It breaks a lot of paint if it is brittle. It can shoot paint that crack from hip/chest height but no way is it shooting anything under 2 feet without issues. It could probably shoot ulta evil if it was bad or stored to moist.
Could you please make a video where you droptest ultra evlil from 1.5 foot and then shoot a hopper at 280-290 fps?
I have never seen any such video

Quote:
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I used my NT11 at MAO the entire weekend with absolutely no issues. Before I did the below fixes, I broke paint ALL THE TIME and it was infuriating. Here is what I did:

1. Replaced my eye-pipe with the newest one (it was cracked and malformed)

2. Completely seated the rubber eye-harness to ensure that the detents recessed appropriately.

3. Installed a blue o-ring on the green bolt insert (effectively pushing the bolt's resting position 1/16" forward, to avoid ball-stack clipping)

4. Installed a smaller orange o-ring for bolt bumper, so that it does not make contact with the can (the o-ring in front of the bolt sail.) This allows you to reduce dwell and overall HPR pressure for the operation of the bolt.

I can now shoot brittle Ultra-Evil paint all weekend with no chops at 295 +/- 0.3 fps at the chrono. At tournaments, I don't chop paint, even while my teammates with Vanquishes/ DM14s/ Luxes chop every now and then.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:26 PM #61
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Rosa posted as I was typing that.

Rosa I would try the no flow insert and eyepipe/rubber seal combo first. If you have paint that isn't super fragile (knee height) that would make for better testing. It's unrealistic to think an NT will ever shoot that paint no matter what you do.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:37 PM #62
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Yes I think the super brittle paint I tested with lately is to brittle to work in the NT. I can se a bigg difference in breakage in different temperatures with this sensetive paint.
I will get paint that is a little bit harder to test with. It still need to break a bit with the original bolt so I can se the effect of changes. You are right Paint_hore that if this paint break to easy I cant realy se the effect of changes as it will still break paint even if the bolt is less hard on paint after mods.

BTW, I can shoot this paint with the DM9. My team mates tried it with EGO11 and EGO LV1 and both hade problems. This only says that the older DM:s is verry handy when its cold moornings and brittle paint is what you can get.

Quote:
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Rosa posted as I was typing that.

Rosa I would try the no flow insert and eyepipe/rubber seal combo first. If you have paint that isn't super fragile (knee height) that would make for better testing. It's unrealistic to think an NT will ever shoot that paint no matter what you do.

Last edited by rosakatten : 05-23-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:48 PM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paint_hore View Post
The orange bumper is what everyone should be using anyway since it's a stock nt11 part (no trick there) That oring should never cause drag since it's not meant to touch the can, it's only a cushion on the forward stroke.

If any nt11 owner doesn't have that orange bumper it's cause the previous owner had no idea it was changed since the nt10, about 3 years ago.
I was basing my observations on the provided photograph:
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