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Old 05-16-2014, 05:32 PM #22
rosakatten
 
 
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I have never had issues wth the spool not cycling and I have tried below 110 psi. (I just think maybe it could be useful if bigger preassure changes are tested)
What I believe to be the problem is bolt speed or a combination of speed and maybe the detents.
Compared to PMR older versions, they have rubber detents and work at 140 psi and with similar outer diameter of the bolt. The PMR and many other guns dont drive the bolt with contact surfaces on the bolts inside and outside however.
Maybe in next week I will sit down and make som calculations to use as base for the next series of mods. I also need to meassure bolt speed.

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Originally Posted by Paint_hore View Post
Its a balancing act with the spool spring. A softer spring allows for lower pressure but then if its too soft the bolt wont cycle properly.

I dont know if the spool is really the issue anyway. If you stick your finger in and fire the nt, the first half stroke is softer than the back half.

Gun runs at only 110 psi, so something odd is going on that causes breaks.

Last edited by rosakatten : 05-16-2014 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:37 PM #23
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I have tested my NT11 with brittle paint at different psi settings last year.
After some small changes that did not seem to help I lowered the pressure until the fps was 250 and still got the exact same amount of breakage.
I will try to calculate or meassure what impact this change of psi has on bolt speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paint_hore View Post
Its a balancing act with the spool spring. A softer spring allows for lower pressure but then if its too soft the bolt wont cycle properly.

I dont know if the spool is really the issue anyway. If you stick your finger in and fire the nt, the first half stroke is softer than the back half.

Gun runs at only 110 psi, so something odd is going on that causes breaks.
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:54 PM #24
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Thats why Im saying that the pressure the gun operates at isnt really the issue. 110 psi is lower than almost any gun out there...the GTi is around 105-110 and that thing never breaks paint no matter how fragile it is. Ive shot stuff through a GT that breaks from knee height and as long as I overbore it shot flawlessly.

Bolt speed or the funneling of the air through the flow insert are the only two things I can think of. Detents can also play a part as Ive seen some NTs with detents that barely move.


Have you ever considered trying to use softer detents such as rubber fingers found on the Ego or Clone GT? Or even the magnet types like the killa detents.
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Old 05-16-2014, 10:46 PM #25
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2014 vapor eyepipe? Probably won't fit.
The eyepipe to me. Is an issue if trying to redefine the detents.
I do agree ph with the flow of air. Maybe when the gest of the air hits. Maybe it causes the cracking of the shell. In combination with the short bolt. The clone has a slightly longer bolt? Maybe gets the ball slightly faster in speed before air hits. Idk...lol

Last edited by the korean1 : 05-16-2014 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:29 PM #26
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I think the issue is in the distance between the face of the bolt to the detents. I think the bolt is slapping the ball rather than pushing it. When I made the prop rod, the ball did not move at all in the breach. I shot ultra evil in cold weather and hot weather and I didn't break a single ball for about 5 months of playing sat and Sunday nearly every weekend. Once the prop rod broke off I started breaking balls again instantly

I don't think the air has much if anything to do with it either. Again back to the prop rod. The opening that I drilled was about 1/2 the size of the blu flow insert.
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Old 05-17-2014, 01:00 AM #27
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But when I get barrel breaks the paint isn't on the face of the bolt.

The prop rod would still keep the ball away from the bolt though. Wouldn't this allow the bolt to slam the ball rather than push it?
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Old 05-17-2014, 05:10 AM #28
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The Ego style detents as on Vanquish should be interesting to try.
I will think about this one for a while, it should not be to dificult to do.
Also I can test to shoot paint that I know will break with the original detents than removing the detents and shoot without them. (if i fire at a steep angle and use the ofset ring i have). The result should be quite clear if the detents are the issue. it should also be possible to remove some of the rubber of the eye holder so it does not interfere with the detents.
Thanks for the ego detent idea Paint_hore. I actualy think there might be something in the detent/boltspeed combo that might be the cause. I can feel the detent on the right side on my NT11 beeing a lot stiffer than the other side. if the detents is hard to move it is easy to se that this will be an issue with ball breakage. Not so much with paint that is not brittle but brittle paint will just crack on th edetent and blow apart down the barrel.

Tomorow I will test some of my latest changes, and I will also test an eyepipe without detents or shaved down detents to check this. Next week if the detent issue can be verrified I will make a test eyepipe of aluminium with ego nubbins. This will require some tricky milling but I will get it done.
I don't have a CNC machine so it's all done manually.

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Thats why Im saying that the pressure the gun operates at isnt really the issue. 110 psi is lower than almost any gun out there...the GTi is around 105-110 and that thing never breaks paint no matter how fragile it is. Ive shot stuff through a GT that breaks from knee height and as long as I overbore it shot flawlessly.

Bolt speed or the funneling of the air through the flow insert are the only two things I can think of. Detents can also play a part as Ive seen some NTs with detents that barely move.


Have you ever considered trying to use softer detents such as rubber fingers found on the Ego or Clone GT? Or even the magnet types like the killa detents.
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:36 AM #29
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Come to think of it, I could just file down the detents, drill a hole through and let the rubber nubbin go through the original detent. Just secure it with a bit of glue. I gues it will have to be shortened a little bit aswell.
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Old 05-17-2014, 02:04 PM #30
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Just make sure you have a small channel for the collapsed detent as the bolt passes in between them.

I noticed a long time ago that one of my detents is also slightly stiffer than the other but I thought it was in my head. Its the right side detent if you are actually shooting the marker or left side if looking down the barrel.
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:44 PM #31
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I've never shot evil or ultra evil, but when feeling my detents they're pretty soft, Is tournament paint really that brittle that the detents could break a ball?
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Old 05-17-2014, 04:21 PM #32
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Then its the same side as on mine.
I will make small aluminium plates with the slots for the detents to fold in to.
These will attach to the eyepipe but not without some machining.

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Just make sure you have a small channel for the collapsed detent as the bolt passes in between them.

I noticed a long time ago that one of my detents is also slightly stiffer than the other but I thought it was in my head. Its the right side detent if you are actually shooting the marker or left side if looking down the barrel.
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Old 05-18-2014, 05:22 PM #33
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Sweet, cant wait to see the progress.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:12 PM #34
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Tried some brittle paint yesterday. And as suspected it broke ever 5:t ball.
At home I remover the eyepipe and looked down inside the body. I hav done this before and I se that the rubber eyeholder soes not sitt symetricaly. It sticks out more on the left side looking from the barrel end.

I removed the eyeholder and the rubber is one of the preblems.
There just aint enough room to let the detents move freely.
I am not sure if the bolt speed is the differance between working and not working but since the system is the same on DM I think maybe boltspeed and the fact that the detents cant fold in to make a flush pipe is an big issue.

Can you se that the rubber sticks out more on the side whith the red line?
The breach is to the right... The cuts wherer the barrel screws in are vissible.

When i place a ball in the breach the detents stick out a bit more than the width of the step on the eyepipe. The indentation on the rubber (hole) is not aligned with the round detent but its a bit more forward to give place for the arm to bend out. This does'nt seem to be enough on my NT. If i hold the parts together and try to push an alen key round the orifice the detent is not retracted enough to make the bore of the eyepipe smooth. The detent sticks out.


The last image is of the rubber i have removed some material from to give the small arm of the detent some room to make sure the detent can fold away and out of the pipe.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:20 PM #35
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Also tested the weird looking plunger tip I made.
It did not work as intended. It restricts flow so I will decrease the diameter and try with the original bolt with red bolt tip and no insert (using the plunger bumper instead.
The new plunger tip will be made in sections to help me test if using it to hold the ball in place 0.5mm from the bolt. I can then use shims to make inte shorter or longer to test this theory aswell.
First I will test the eyerubber mod only to se the effects of this alone.
I also shot a case of not so brittle paint wth no issues. Damn I love how the NT11 shoot.

I need to find out what make these babys so sour. It's so sad that these jewels have so bad rep...
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:37 PM #36
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What a great job you have done so far. I think I speak for all in saying thanks.
making sure the detents are not the cause or a start of a problem is what needs to be done.
I will have to get some brittle paint to see what mine does. I have normally used mid grade.
I also was thinking on if the detents are a tad still tight. Using a heat gun to kinda remold them. But Iif the rubber is causing issues then there's no use.

Last edited by the korean1 : 05-19-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:44 PM #37
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I also noticed that the indentation for the wires is not the same on NT11. The NT10 I have at work have semi circle shape and this NT11 has a box section... The wires are easier to fit in this but the new tool for the rubber might have the wrong dimensions or even the body machining.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:45 PM #38
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Has anyone tried a 014 duro 50 on the bolt tip? I thought I read somewhere people were trying 013 orings with some success...

obviously you guys are more knowledgeable on Nts but in Dms the softer Durometer oring I think helps with the ball stack clipping.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:47 PM #39
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I can say that I am actualy thinking of cutting a part of the rubber holder of.
There is not much function in the part behind the detent other than keeping paint out of the eyes. And since the area where the diodes sitt are sealing against the eyepipe there should not be much of a problem anyway.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:54 PM #40
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Try running without the eyes and rubber installed. If that kills any breakage. That will at least give a starting point
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:57 PM #41
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That would also be interesting.
First I would like to know how the NT bolt speed and acceleration is different from the DM. I Know that the last part of the movement is "fast" not sure about the first part since it is more a bit more complicated on the NT...

Since there are vitrualy no issues with the DM shooting brittle paint and they have the same bolt tip and bolt tip o-ring there should not be any more issues with the NT if the first part of the bolt movement is at the same speed. (and acceleration)

It might be a good idea anyway since the colour coded o-rings seem to be less stretchy than regular.
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Has anyone tried a 014 duro 50 on the bolt tip? I thought I read somewhere people were trying 013 orings with some success...

obviously you guys are more knowledgeable on Nts but in Dms the softer Durometer oring I think helps with the ball stack clipping.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:58 PM #42
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I will do that to make sure. Thanks.
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Try running without the eyes and rubber installed. If that kills any breakage. That will at least give a starting point
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