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Old 05-14-2014, 02:51 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffan2 View Post
Now without further adieu..... Here is final version of the gun and the valve system, in Pewter with Black accents Notice the front grip is a little wider at the front and has a slightly different cut where it narrows to the existing cut on the grip frame and the gun body. Wider for more air storage. Also the front cap no longer holds the balancing feature but that the valve is a self contained unit. The valve pin is now Stainless Steel instead of Aluminum, as is the rammer. The gun at extravaganza had a aluminum insert in the bolt - when that was taken out the ball speed dropped. The gun needed a little more inertia. With the Rammer now about 40% less than the Independence Rammer, the Dwell in this gun is about 7 ms instead of 11ms for Independence. Front cap is smaller too. Also the spring to close the valve is now much smaller. One thing that is hard to tell is the new bolt pins now have an aluminum cap that matches the accessory color. We are hoping to be at Capital Edge Paintball Park in Sacramento this weekend with the gun so players can shoot it and I will be filming the shooting video for the marker. If not this weekend then next. I will also have the gun out the following weekend for the WCPPL event for players to check out.
Sweet we'll be at WCPPL, I'd live to check it iut
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:50 AM #65
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Where's the sweep bolt?
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:32 AM #66
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I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one at Hustle in the near future. Looks very interesting.
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:50 AM #67
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Where's the sweep bolt?
I wondered who would be first to notice - it is a rendering and it was the valve that was changing. Sweep will be in final manual and such
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:12 AM #68
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Whew^^ i noticed too and was worried there for a second!
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Old 05-15-2014, 03:17 PM #69
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Looking at the CAD drawing, and it may be completly obvious, with the changes made is it still pressure balanced?
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Old 05-15-2014, 03:45 PM #70
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:12 PM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_racecocker View Post
Looking at the CAD drawing, and it may be completly obvious, with the changes made is it still pressure balanced?
Not really. TMI alert, but
At first it was - we vented the air between the aqua/blue cap and the goldish spindle/pin by drilling down the pin - a small center bore with a side vent so bore wasn't sealed by the rammer. But we needed a strong spring to close the spindle fast enough.
By taking the pin/spindle out of the flow of the firing air it makes it easier for the spindle to open, however by leaving the pressure behind the spindle it makes the spindle close faster. Again because the exhaust air isn't puling the spindle with it so it doesn't require as much pressure to open it or keep it open. Once the rammer hits the pin the stored pressure starts to drop pressure in the spindle so it opens quickly and with less dwell. And we still need a spring t assist it to close, whereas in poppet the spring just hold the pin there, the air will close it.
A balanced poppet makes a poppet easer to open, but a balanced spoppet is just slower to close. Working that out is another reason it took us a few extra weeks to release.
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:08 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
Not really. TMI alert, but
At first it was - we vented the air between the aqua/blue cap and the goldish spindle/pin by drilling down the pin - a small center bore with a side vent so bore wasn't sealed by the rammer. But we needed a strong spring to close the spindle fast enough.


If you're referring to the version that is imaged in this cross-section,



Where is this side vent? Drilled into the "spindle/pin", or something else? What air is it venting, and where to? What bore are you referring to? "Sealed by the rammer" - This doesn't make sense to me.

Are you referring to the bore containing the end of the "spindle/pin"? If this is vented, why the need for a vent within here, as well as the counter bore down the cap?


By taking the pin/spindle out of the flow of the firing air it makes it easier for the spindle to open, however by leaving the pressure behind the spindle it makes the spindle close faster.

Isn't the initial opening of the valve irrespective of the flow, due to no air being expelled across the face of the valve? You make it seem the other way around with these statements.

Again because the exhaust air isn't puling the spindle with it so it doesn't require as much pressure to open it or keep it open.

Same as above. Keep open, sure. You won't have as much air flow dragging the valve closed.

Once the rammer hits the pin the stored pressure starts to drop pressure in the spindle so it opens quickly and with less dwell. And we still need a spring t assist it to close, whereas in poppet the spring just hold the pin there, the air will close it.

Because you have exposed the back of the "spindle/pin" to chamber pressure air, I feel that there is little difference between a standard poppet and your "Morph" valve with respect to closing forces. Chamber pressure is still going to want to close this valve, just as it would in a standard poppet.
Sure, I'll give you that the exhaust air won't be pulling on the "spindle/pin" AS MUCH as with a standard poppet. And yes, initially at full valve lift, you're only going to have the spring pressure and the smaller diameter the spring rides in acting on the poppet.


A balanced poppet makes a poppet easer to open, but a balanced spoppet is just slower to close. Working that out is another reason it took us a few extra weeks to release.

Sealing face won't change this much - it's basic F = P*A. a balanced poppet will close just as slowly as a balanced "spoppet" due to small closing forces.

Also Jack, is it possible to use the accepted terminology for these parts in the future? Your (lack of) sentence structure makes your statements hard to follow as well. If you type like you talk, or at least like you did in the hustle paintball video I've quoted below, then we should be able to understand you better.

Thank you for your time.

Griffan2 - I feel the OP should be updated, as much of this information is now outdated with the newest revision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffan2 View Post




Introducing the 2014 Alien Deception!

This year we are going to be releasing two models of the gun.
Premium model: $1095
Your choice of colors, OLED Hyperdrive board, hard case, carbon fiber barrel that uses freak inserts.

Base model: $899
Dust black only, LED board, soft case, 2 piece aluminum barrel




[IMG]http://s13.************/s6g0tjy0n/IMG_0172_1.jpg[/IMG]


The weight of the Deception is right around 1 pound 7 ounces, while that is extremely light it is in no way flimsy! This gun is every bit as rugged and durable as the independence is.



Valving
The Deception is using an entirely new valve, not another "version" of anything that you have ever seen before. It is a "little of a spool" a "little of a poppet" and a "little of neither one". We are calling this the MORPH valve.
The MORPH valve is actuated as with today's poppet markers but the Valve itself is a spool. This gives the Deception an amazingly low sound signature and extremely calm shot that will be extremely gentle on the most fragile paint. Because of the amazing air flow in the Deception, the user can use any air intake from SLP to high pressure.

This year in the Deception there is only 0.2 oz of material moving back and forth as an actuator with each shot. This will lead to a much calmer shot than what was found with the Independence and Invasion series of guns which are already widely known for being very soft shooters and had rammers of 1.3 ounces.


Now without further adieu.....
Here is final version of the gun and the valve system, in Pewter with Black accents



Notice the front grip is a little wider at the front and has a slightly different cut where it narrows to the existing cut on the grip frame and the gun body. Wider for more air storage.
Also the front cap no longer holds the balancing feature but that the valve is a self contained unit.
The valve pin is now Stainless Steel instead of Aluminum, as is the rammer.
The gun at extravaganza had a aluminum insert in the bolt - when that was taken out the ball speed dropped. The gun needed a little more inertia. With the Rammer now about 40% less than the Independence Rammer, the Dwell in this gun is about 7 ms instead of 11ms for Independence.
Front cap is smaller too. Also the spring to close the valve is now much smaller.
One thing that is hard to tell is the new bolt pins now have an aluminum cap that matches the accessory color.

We are hoping to be at Capital Edge Paintball Park in Sacramento this weekend with the gun so players can shoot it and I will be filming the shooting video for the marker. If not this weekend then next. I will also have the gun out the following weekend for the WCPPL event for players to check out.

Click here to chose your favorite gun color













Also Jack,

You had previously mentioned that the (now not in the gun) "Actuator" that opened the valve was 1/6th the weight, but failed to mention the fact that you had weighted the bolt. Why?

You seemed pretty impressed with yourself, but that almost seems... deceptive. Can you please explain this?

For reference, it was this post. (I'm sure there were others, but this comes to mind)
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:59 PM #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
Jack Wood:
And I think that if you think something is bull****, you have every right to say you think it is. Just because bull**** is the norm doesn't mean it stinks any less.
This always amuses me.
They make a big deal about dual rammer speed controls.
One to slow down the return - while questionable if worth the effort - is arguable. One to slow down the forward motion isn't arguable - there is a LPR for that.

Anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
You had previously mentioned that the (now not in the gun) "Actuator" that opened the valve was 1/6th the weight, but failed to mention the fact that you had weighted the bolt. Why?
Because I didn't "weight the bolt" - they made it wrong.
I never intended to have the bolt weigh extra - to have a teeter totter effect by having the bolt weigh more than it should.
Sometimes prototype houses swap out materials - never a good thing - but it happens in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
You seemed pretty impressed with yourself...
Ouch, maybe we can go with I'm impressed with the gun

As to you other comments, I don't see them as confusing as you seem to want to make them.
Where is this side vent?
At first - we vented the air between the aqua/blue cap and the goldish spindle/pin by drilling down the pin - a small center bore with a side vent so bore wasn't sealed by the rammer
At first it was means we tired that and changed it - but I tried to make it very clear where it was. the whole unit was sealed and the air behind the spindle was balance by a through bore in its central axis

What bore are you referring to? "Sealed by the rammer" - This doesn't make sense to me.
A through bore in the spindle (goldish color) would be in contact with the rammer. No air could vent out that center axis bore while in contact with the rammer - so we had to side vent the cental axis bore.

Isn't the initial opening of the valve irrespective of the flow, due to no air being expelled across the face of the valve? You make it seem the other way around with these statements.

Yes, rather I'm saying that this setup vs. our poppet set up, needs less dwell.
My thought is that is, itself, somewhat counter intuitive. The valve body obviously has restrictions - the side wall that the poppet doesn't have. it would make sense that the Spoppet needs more dwell. Therefore - because it needs less dwell I go with the exhaust pressure pulling the cap is more than the pressure at the back of the spindle.
Because you have exposed the back of the "spindle/pin" to chamber pressure air, I feel that there is little difference between a standard poppet and your "Morph" valve with respect to closing forces. Chamber pressure is still going to want to close this valve, just as it would in a standard poppet.
Sure, I'll give you that the exhaust air won't be pulling on the "spindle/pin" AS MUCH as with a standard poppet. And yes, initially at full valve lift, you're only going to have the spring pressure and the smaller diameter the spring rides in acting on the poppet.

Sealing face won't change this much - it's basic F = P*A. a balanced poppet will close just as slowly as a balanced "spoppet" due to small closing forces.

OK


Also Jack, is it possible to use the accepted terminology for these parts in the future?

Some of these parts are new. I put both pin and spindle because it's not a spool with a spindle and it's not a poppet with a pin and cap.
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Last edited by Jack Rice : 05-15-2014 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:45 PM #74
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Thanks for the info on the gun. Looks like it's getting close to a final form!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
This always amuses me.
They make a big deal about dual rammer speed controls.
One to slow down the return - while questionable if worth the effort - is arguable. One to slow down the forward motion isn't arguable - there is a LPR for that.
No, that's incorrect. There are a couple very good reasons why flow restriction is advantageous over using an LPR in that fashion but let's not get into it in here, completely unnecessary.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:52 PM #75
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i am interested in toying with restrictors on various guns i own as well. But yes, definitely not on topic.

as soon as this puppy lands i am going to remake the measurements and weights and re-write the entire post with the most recent information. it may include efficiency as well as a *ghasp* shooting video!!!
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:58 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
This always amuses me.
They make a big deal about dual rammer speed controls.
One to slow down the return - while questionable if worth the effort - is arguable. One to slow down the forward motion isn't arguable - there is a LPR for that.

Anyway

Because I didn't "weight the bolt" - they made it wrong.
I never intended to have the bolt weigh extra - to have a teeter totter effect by having the bolt weigh more than it should.
Sometimes prototype houses swap out materials - never a good thing - but it happens in the real world.

Ouch, maybe we can go with I'm impressed with the gun

As to you other comments, I don't see them as confusing as you seem to want to make them.
Where is this side vent?
At first - we vented the air between the aqua/blue cap and the goldish spindle/pin by drilling down the pin - a small center bore with a side vent so bore wasn't sealed by the rammer
At first it was means we tired that and changed it - but I tried to make it very clear where it was. the whole unit was sealed and the air behind the spindle was balance by a through bore in its central axis

What bore are you referring to? "Sealed by the rammer" - This doesn't make sense to me.
A through bore in the spindle (goldish color) would be in contact with the rammer. No air could vent out that center axis bore while in contact with the rammer - so we had to side vent the cental axis bore.

Isn't the initial opening of the valve irrespective of the flow, due to no air being expelled across the face of the valve? You make it seem the other way around with these statements.

Yes, rather I'm saying that this setup vs. our poppet set up, needs less dwell.
My thought is that is, itself, somewhat counter intuitive. The valve body obviously has restrictions - the side wall that the poppet doesn't have. it would make sense that the Spoppet needs more dwell. Therefore - because it needs less dwell I go with the exhaust pressure pulling the cap is more than the pressure at the back of the spindle.
Because you have exposed the back of the "spindle/pin" to chamber pressure air, I feel that there is little difference between a standard poppet and your "Morph" valve with respect to closing forces. Chamber pressure is still going to want to close this valve, just as it would in a standard poppet.
Sure, I'll give you that the exhaust air won't be pulling on the "spindle/pin" AS MUCH as with a standard poppet. And yes, initially at full valve lift, you're only going to have the spring pressure and the smaller diameter the spring rides in acting on the poppet.

Sealing face won't change this much - it's basic F = P*A. a balanced poppet will close just as slowly as a balanced "spoppet" due to small closing forces.

OK


Also Jack, is it possible to use the accepted terminology for these parts in the future?

Some of these parts are new. I put both pin and spindle because it's not a spool with a spindle and it's not a poppet with a pin and cap.
Jack,

Thank you for the explanation. I was confused if you were referring to the initial design, or the current one.

I had assumed the gun was more or less finalized and you were trying to sneak that in, instead of modify parameters of a prototype.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:59 PM #77
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Quote:
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No, that's incorrect. There are a couple very good reasons why flow restriction is advantageous over using an LPR in that fashion but let's not get into it in here, completely unnecessary.
Email me then - I don't agree - "in that fashion" - odd - LPR has one job, moves the rammer
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:08 PM #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
I had assumed the gun was more or less finalized and you were trying to sneak that in, instead of modify parameters of a prototype.
Not to be too picky, but we did think it was more finalized than it proved to be.
I wasn't happy when the ball speed dropped when we changed the bolt insert. Yet to leave it weighted wasn't the best option. It has been many months of test, analyze and modify. Retest, analyze and modify again. All of which is fine but when done on finished bodies it gets expensive.
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:33 PM #79
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:55 PM #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
"in that fashion" - odd - LPR has one job, moves the rammer
Sorry, I should have been more clear. "In that fashion" as in using the LPR to adjust bolt speed.

I think I prefer to see it as the solenoid switching "moves" the rammer, the LPR only exists to get the pressure into the solenoid's working range.

And if you prefer to sweep all the pressure, flow, momentum and force dynamics under the rug and say the lpr's only job is to "move" the rammer, that is certainly one way of looking at it.
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:44 AM #81
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So you don't want to email me? "let's not get into it in here, completely unnecessary" That doesn't mean we leave false opinion as fact.

You said: "There are a couple very good reasons why flow restriction is advantageous over using an LPR" - False

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I think I prefer to see it as the solenoid switching "moves" the rammer, the LPR only exists to get the pressure into the solenoid's working range.
You say potato, I say potato.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
And if you prefer to sweep all the pressure, flow, momentum and force dynamics under the rug and say the lpr's only job is to "move" the rammer, that is certainly one way of looking at it.
There is only one way to look at it.
You can over pressurize and then reduce the effect of that pressure by restricting the flow or you can regulate the pressure correctly.
The only consideration is if having a flow restriction on one side is worth the effort.
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:54 AM #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice View Post
So you don't want to email me? "let's not get into it in here, completely unnecessary" That doesn't men we leave false opinion as fact. You said: "There are a couple very good reasons why flow restriction is advantageous over using an LPR" - False You say potato, I say potato. There is only one way to look at it. You can over pressurize and then reduce the effect of that pressure by restricting the flow or you can regulate the pressure correctly. The only consideration is if having a flow restriction on one side is worth the effort.

Liking these responses. I guess there's some benefit to people reading through these inquiries, but like Jack said - you should probably email or PM him.

Some are in attack mode eh? Can't wait to see this in action.
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Old 05-16-2014, 09:24 AM #83
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I don't have your email address.

Good luck with the marker.
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:39 PM #84
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