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Old 01-28-2014, 08:23 PM #1
Buwaro
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Spoolie Tippmann

I have been designing this for a few weeks now. I think I have finally worked out how I want this thing to work, now I just need to make sure I can fit all of the dimensions properly inside of the space I have.

Does anyone know of a free 2D design program I can use to mock this thing up?


Last edited by Buwaro : 01-28-2014 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:49 AM #2
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Google had something for free. I don't know how well it works though, as I stick to solidworks.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:40 AM #3
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Neat idea
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:15 AM #4
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Looks a lot like an Ion. Is it still a blow-forward? Also, what's with the bushing on the bolt tail right there at the end? I can't think of any way to make the bolt tail fit through there.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:05 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasethebarber View Post
Looks a lot like an Ion. Is it still a blow-forward? Also, what's with the bushing on the bolt tail right there at the end? I can't think of any way to make the bolt tail fit through there.
looks more like a (slightly unbalanced) balanced spool (think DM) cross between a Vcom and this http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...ac264_8fps.gif in the way the dump chamber is shut off.

And I share your concerns regarding assembly.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:23 AM #6
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Maybe if the rear piston threaded into the midsection and the back was open and accessible it would be easier (possible) to remove.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:39 AM #7
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Yup, that rear piston head will have to be removable somehow. You can look into freecad I had a bear of a time using it but that's the best one that comes to mind. inkscape will allow you to put in angles and dimensions but its not really designed for it.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:57 PM #8
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I have made a few changes to make it actually work. Solenoid forward and then main air pushes the piston back. I also made an expanded spot in the bolt so that the whole thing doesn't just fly out the end the first time you fire it.

Let me know what you guys think.



Quote:
Originally Posted by got wake? View Post
Google had something for free. I don't know how well it works though, as I stick to solidworks.
It's called sketchup and I really don't like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darth p View Post
Neat idea
Thanks I am trying to work through the design function phase right now and get to the actual mocking up and building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasethebarber View Post
Looks a lot like an Ion. Is it still a blow-forward? Also, what's with the bushing on the bolt tail right there at the end? I can't think of any way to make the bolt tail fit through there.
It is a little bit of everything mixed into one. I have looked at almost every spool on zdspb and taken ideas from all sorts of different designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tacxplosion View Post
looks more like a (slightly unbalanced) balanced spool (think DM) cross between a Vcom and this http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...ac264_8fps.gif in the way the dump chamber is shut off.

And I share your concerns regarding assembly.
I think I have solved the assembly concerns. It should slip right in now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepscantshootguns View Post
Maybe if the rear piston threaded into the midsection and the back was open and accessible it would be easier (possible) to remove.
I went away from that design, assembly and disassembly would be too complicated.

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Originally Posted by cpt_crunch View Post
Yup, that rear piston head will have to be removable somehow. You can look into freecad I had a bear of a time using it but that's the best one that comes to mind. inkscape will allow you to put in angles and dimensions but its not really designed for it.
This design is much better, I think.

Last edited by Buwaro : 01-29-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:00 PM #9
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I use draftsight as my 2d program. It is made by dassault (SolidWorks) and is free.

If you want air to reset the bolt, then you need to make the dual-oring section on the bolt tail a larger diameter than the rest of the stem that spans the air supply. Functionally, you've created an insight, however, your pressure would be significantly higher because you have a massive amount of volume in the bolt relative to the chamber volume. I also suspect this would be a very inefficient system, though it could be aided by a QEV.

On a simpler note, unless you just like redundancy there's no reason for 2 orings on the tail either. For the shut off you need a ramp ~.1" wide at ~15* angle or that oring will drive you nuts.
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Old 01-29-2014, 07:47 PM #10
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I use draftsight as my 2d program. It is made by dassault (SolidWorks) and is free.

If you want air to reset the bolt, then you need to make the dual-oring section on the bolt tail a larger diameter than the rest of the stem that spans the air supply. Functionally, you've created an insight, however, your pressure would be significantly higher because you have a massive amount of volume in the bolt relative to the chamber volume. I also suspect this would be a very inefficient system, though it could be aided by a QEV.

On a simpler note, unless you just like redundancy there's no reason for 2 orings on the tail either. For the shut off you need a ramp ~.1" wide at ~15* angle or that oring will drive you nuts.
I see what you're saying with the bolt volume vs. Chamber volume. I'm working on that now. Also, are you saying that the tail end should be the largest diameter piece in the system?
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:05 PM #11
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When the bolt is in the forward position and that shaft seals off the inlet you're neutrally biased. You need more area on the closing surface to create the bias. The dump chamber biasing is unpredictable at best. If you PM me I'll give you my email and I'll help you out.

At rest you appear to be forward biased and that doesn't match your explanation of how it works.
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Last edited by ironyusa : 01-29-2014 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:25 PM #12
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I'll have to message you in the morning when I get home. I'm still working everything out. Right now I'm using graph paper that has .1" squares so I can get some scale on this thing and figure out how much room I actually have.
The more I look at this thing, the more I think I would be better off with just an ebolt ram with a spool attached to the front. that's what I'm working on right now.

Last edited by Buwaro : 01-29-2014 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:57 PM #13
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The design you have is legit as heck. The main thing you need to work out is your biasing. The good part about it is the paint handling should be decent too. If you can get the dump chamber volume right then it has potential to be pretty low pressure (quiet) and moderately efficient as well. If you get draftsight then you can scale everything and I'll help you tweak it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:25 AM #14
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I did some quick measurements, and with this design I should have about 1.2 cubic inches in the dump chamber. This design is capable of sealing off the chamber and it can actually move back and forth. I also eliminated a lot of wasted open space in the bolt. Let me know what you guys think. Thank you all for your input and help with this so far. Now I just need to actually start getting all of the measurements for this thing and then hopefully get a prototype made up.

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Old 01-30-2014, 09:30 AM #15
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Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
The design you have is legit as heck. The main thing you need to work out is your biasing. The good part about it is the paint handling should be decent too. If you can get the dump chamber volume right then it has potential to be pretty low pressure (quiet) and moderately efficient as well. If you get draftsight then you can scale everything and I'll help you tweak it.
I am downloading draftsight now. If I can figure it out I should have enough time to get something drawn up this weekend. I am hoping this thing will run >300psi.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:01 AM #16
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Dare I recommend eigenchannels (TM) on the piston shaft to help reset the bolt faster, for efficiency's sake.




Also, the less bends the LP pathways have, the faster the bolt will open at the same pressure, enabling you to lower the LPR (or HPR if you're going with a single reg), it might not amount to all that much, but straight paths are also easier to machine than bends. Considering the way the dump chamber seals, it could potentially be as efficient as the insight.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:07 AM #17
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I am downloading draftsight now. If I can figure it out I should have enough time to get something drawn up this weekend. I am hoping this thing will run >300psi.
Draftsight is basically free autocad. It's laid out a bit different, but functionally it's close and most keyboard shortcuts are the same.

I don't see any reason why sub-300 psi won't be achievable. You just need to tune your valve lift to allow it to get to the right velocity.

Quote:
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Dare I recommend eigenchannels (TM) on the piston shaft to help reset the bolt faster, for efficiency's sake.

[IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/964x256q90/545/tp0a.png[IMG]


Also, the less bends the LP pathways have, the faster the bolt will open at the same pressure, enabling you to lower the LPR (or HPR if you're going with a single reg), it might not amount to all that much, but straight paths are also easier to machine than bends. Considering the way the dump chamber seals, it could potentially be as efficient as the insight.
The "eigenchannels" are nothing more than QEVs located on the bolt. It won't be as efficient as the insight because of other issues in the design, but it probably won't be bad.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:15 PM #18
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Commenting as I want to follow this idea. If it works, I'm definitely gonna pick up a 98c and mod this.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:49 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buwaro View Post
I did some quick measurements, and with this design I should have about 1.2 cubic inches in the dump chamber. This design is capable of sealing off the chamber and it can actually move back and forth. I also eliminated a lot of wasted open space in the bolt. Let me know what you guys think. Thank you all for your input and help with this so far. Now I just need to actually start getting all of the measurements for this thing and then hopefully get a prototype made up.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/P8hbm4o.png[IMG]
So normal bolt throw is ~1" or so. The dump valve should have either side of ~.2" of lift depending on the flow area. Look at a tech t bolt (ion or dp) and think of that as the function that matters. You're just adding a secondary valve which is a stop-loss for efficiency.

Shorten the bolt itself.
Move the valve closer to the front.
Consider shortening the entire assembly and using the extra real estate for an inline solenoid. -- I thought about this one a little more and you're better off using a linear actuator/ solenoid (clapper-type) and driving a pilot. That way you don't need a LPR and can drive in excess of 300psi or whatever your target is without ever worrying about blowing a noid.
Go back to the closed biased design. (Think of it as a pneumatic FASOR, where the air spring tension is constant.)
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:42 PM #20
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So normal bolt throw is ~1" or so. The dump valve should have either side of ~.2" of lift depending on the flow area. Look at a tech t bolt (ion or dp) and think of that as the function that matters. You're just adding a secondary valve which is a stop-loss for efficiency.

Shorten the bolt itself.
Move the valve closer to the front.
Consider shortening the entire assembly and using the extra real estate for an inline solenoid. -- I thought about this one a little more and you're better off using a linear actuator/ solenoid (clapper-type) and driving a pilot. That way you don't need a LPR and can drive in excess of 300psi or whatever your target is without ever worrying about blowing a noid.
Go back to the closed biased design. (Think of it as a pneumatic FASOR, where the air spring tension is constant.)
This design is easily done for me. I would go with the biased return, but it means more orings and possibly more problems. This design is an ebolt piston (that I have made before) with a spool attached to the front. I am capable of creating this, so that's why I went with it. I can't really shorten anything without having to modify the gun internals or moving the dump chamber outside of the gun. I want it to be as drop in ready as possible and essentially look like a lp kit on the outside.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:08 PM #21
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You can do the air spring without adding any more orings if you tweak the dims.

Good luck on the design.
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