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Old 05-02-2014, 11:08 AM #610
Nick Brockdorff
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I think it was pretty clear, the number of people buying gear would probably increase on the short term, but more people buying cheaper gear on the short term doesn't automatically translate to a good long-term outcome for the industry.

The ease of keeping that equipment functioning and availability of good fields to use it on, on the other hand, are essential to turning people who buy markers into long term players and repeat customers. I believe that's the point you're consistently missing.
Wow, that is one of the most silly things I have heard in a long time.

First, If the percentage of people getting their equipment fixed at the local shop is above 5 %, I'd be very surprised.... most use the Internet (go figure...) and fix it themselves, or ask one of the countless techies hanging around our sport to do them a solid - or..... (this might blow your mind, since you are apparently living in the 1950s, and get all your high tech purchases fixed at the local purchase point)...... people send it to the manufacturer or retailer to get fixed.

Secondly, if you believe more guns sold equates fewer fields to play on, I am actually lost for words.... it is hard to respond to something completely illogical.

Your perception of how a market works is deeply flawed, if you truly think a market will decrease if you drop prices. - If you were right, I'd recommend all manufacturers raise prices to 10K per gun, so we can get some more players in the sport!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post

There is a market between manufacturers to set competitive MAP prices, but if there were no MAP and the local shops went under, most manufacturers would probably favor selling DTC through the internet.

But long term that almost assuredly means fewer sales for them which is why they're willing to take the hit of fewer sales for the benefit of their dealers.
Sure, that is why we are seeing companies like Apple and Dell struggling so bad, with an ever decreasing market - poor guys, they should have stayed away from doing business DTC!
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:03 PM #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
First, If the percentage of people getting their equipment fixed at the local shop is above 5 %, I'd be very surprised.... most use the Internet (go figure...) and fix it themselves, or ask one of the countless techies hanging around our sport to do them a solid - or..... (this might blow your mind, since you are apparently living in the 1950s, and get all your high tech purchases fixed at the local purchase point)...... people send it to the manufacturer or retailer to get fixed.
So your argument is based on anecdote, gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Secondly, if you believe more guns sold equates fewer fields to play on, I am actually lost for words.... it is hard to respond to something completely illogical.
Guess what fields survive on? Paint. How is "Field Paint Only" free market? Why aren't you railing against that? Do you not think there's a MAP on paint?

It's exactly the same situation - a field sets their price on various paints. If you don't like them, you take your business to another field.

A manufacturer sets their advertised price on various markers. If you don't like them, you go to a different manufacturer.

And paint manufacturers set a MAP on paint because they clearly have an interest in keeping fields open, even though it unquestionably decreases paint use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Your perception of how a market works is deeply flawed, if you truly think a market will decrease if you drop prices. - If you were right, I'd recommend all manufacturers raise prices to 10K per gun, so we can get some more players in the sport!
You keep saying that and making ad-hom attacks on me being illogical without actually refuting anything because you don't know where to start. Maybe you truly just don't know where to start...

Let me ask you this; if my understanding of markets is so flawed and protecting dealers through MAP isn't worthwhile, what's preventing manufacturers from going DTC right now?

-Either way the manufacturer sets the price they sell for, be it to a dealer or consumer
-Manufacturers have even more control over repairs and QC
-There is no dealer to take their cut (and it's relatively large) so both the manufacturer keeps more money and the price comes down, meaning improved sales.

Since you clearly have a better insight into markets than anyone here, why are manufacturers continuing to support dealers through MAP? It costs effort (money) and reduces sales. So what's keeping them from doing it?

Might it be that they understand their own market better than you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Sure, that is why we are seeing companies like Apple and Dell struggling so bad, with an ever decreasing market - poor guys, they should have stayed away from doing business DTC!
When there are KEE stores nearly everywhere I can take my gear to get repaired, you might have an argument.

But paintball doesn't have that kind of infrastructure, and it's telling that you're comparing such vastly different markets.

And on top of all that, you don't think Apple has MAP pricing!
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Last edited by Umami : 05-02-2014 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:18 AM #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
....
Whether it is MAP or MSRP or RRP, I don't care, they are all standing in the way of letting free market determine the fair price of products.
If you had been following the thread you wouldn't have said that last sentence because it doesn't make sense. MAP, MSRP, etc are not a barrier to fair market price. If the the MAP or MSRP is too high people won't buy (or shouldn't). Not to mention the store can ultimately sell at whatever price they want.
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:35 AM #613
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I work in a hardware store that sells Ben Moore paint- the owner sold a case of high end paint with a 10% discount, got a call from Ben Moore saying not to discount the genex line because we were below cost....it's not just cars and pb stuff.
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Old 05-03-2014, 08:15 AM #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Wow, that is one of the most silly things I have heard in a long time.

First, If the percentage of people getting their equipment fixed at the local shop is above 5 %, I'd be very surprised.... most use the Internet (go figure...)people send it to the manufacturer or retailer to get fixed. !
So a local shop isn't a retailer?

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Old 05-03-2014, 11:42 AM #615
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So a local shop isn't a retailer?

Yes, and the operative word was "send"
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:30 PM #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
So your argument is based on anecdote, gotcha.



Guess what fields survive on? Paint. How is "Field Paint Only" free market? Why aren't you railing against that? Do you not think there's a MAP on paint?

It's exactly the same situation - a field sets their price on various paints. If you don't like them, you take your business to another field.

A manufacturer sets their advertised price on various markers. If you don't like them, you go to a different manufacturer.

And paint manufacturers set a MAP on paint because they clearly have an interest in keeping fields open, even though it unquestionably decreases paint use.



You keep saying that and making ad-hom attacks on me being illogical without actually refuting anything because you don't know where to start. Maybe you truly just don't know where to start...

Let me ask you this; if my understanding of markets is so flawed and protecting dealers through MAP isn't worthwhile, what's preventing manufacturers from going DTC right now?

-Either way the manufacturer sets the price they sell for, be it to a dealer or consumer
-Manufacturers have even more control over repairs and QC
-There is no dealer to take their cut (and it's relatively large) so both the manufacturer keeps more money and the price comes down, meaning improved sales.

Since you clearly have a better insight into markets than anyone here, why are manufacturers continuing to support dealers through MAP? It costs effort (money) and reduces sales. So what's keeping them from doing it?

Might it be that they understand their own market better than you do?



When there are KEE stores nearly everywhere I can take my gear to get repaired, you might have an argument.

But paintball doesn't have that kind of infrastructure, and it's telling that you're comparing such vastly different markets.

And on top of all that, you don't think Apple has MAP pricing!
I think you're argument is poor at best, or at least the way you present it.

This is an issue over MAP pricing on a marker. You stated people buying gear on the short term has a real potential to poor long term growth. That makes no sense. Let's say I buy a complete new setup for 10% off of MAP pricing online. For fun, we'll call that $1500 at MAP and $1350 below MAP. The local fields here sell nothing more than paint and air as well as having a few basic universal repair kits. They lost $0 in the sale, since they aren't in the business of selling guns. Now as the consumer, I've got $150 more than had I paid full retail, and I want to play. I head to the local field, spend that $150 in paint, and have a blast. I'm itching to go back and spend more money on paint. Sounds like the field's win by having more gear on the market. Now say after half a season the marker just isn't shooting quite right. I want to have it looked at, but I don't want to send it back and be without a marker mid year. So, I take it down to the local field, have one of their techs look at it, I pay them, and I'm back on my way to playing at the field and spending money with them. I can't justify sending it off to the guys I bought it from nor to the manufacturer as I want to keep playing. The fields win.

The field's win with more gear on the market, even if it's a few years old and new gear sales have stalled. Interested players with competitive gear and a bit of free cash leads to fields profiting. They need three things; interested players, those players to have competitive (for the style they want to play) gear, and cash to spend on entertainment. I can't imagine a way in which the field hurts from such a situation that creates more interested players with gear and cash.

The local store that stocks gear loses, and if they are attached with a field that relies on gear sales, it may push that field into tough times. But the places that have profitable fields will not hurt from more gear on the market. There is certainly a fine line between sales growth being great and the market being flooded with new gear saturating the market for upcoming years. I think we've already hit the saturation point a while back.

I can understand why a company wants to control growth/sales while also protecting their brand image and selling point. MAP makes perfect sense from a manufacturer point of view for many reasons. That doesn't mean it translates to the field as a good thing. Make no mistake, MAP is in place to benefit the manufacturer and only them. If it happens to help someone else, then great, but if MAP harmed the manufacturer (typically in the long term sense of which they are interested) it would be done away with over night. It isn't to help the sport, or the industry, or the Mom and Pop stores, or even the consumer. It's because the manufacturer feels they can make the most long term profit with such a system in place. For the record I think a company doing what it can to sustain and profit is exactly the right move to make. But lets not act, like so many people do, like MAP is in place to help anyone but the manufacturer end the day/month/year/decade with more money in their pockets.
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:05 PM #617
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There is most definitely a way around map.
Don't advertise the price. Simple. Sell for what you want, do like ANS does and make them add to cart to see price.

Brick and mortars can't realistically do that.
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Old 05-03-2014, 10:43 PM #618
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But lets not act, like so many people do, like MAP is in place to help anyone but the manufacturer end the day/month/year/decade with more money in their pockets.
Except that's not true. MAP is a method to limit the amount of competing their customers (the stores/fields) do directly with each other....thus most of them are helped. Just because you can understand the benefit to *one* side of the equation doesn't mean there isn't benefit on the other side. This isn't a zero sum system.
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Old 05-04-2014, 06:39 PM #619
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This is a pretty stupid debate which has a very simple answer. If ANSgear sells below the MAP, Macdev has the right to no longer sell to them, period. It doesn't matter who has the moral high ground because those are the terms that ANS agreed to comply to as a distributor.

I personally could care less either way. It isn't like there is a shortage of places to purchase Macdev products which I don't purchase anyways. It also isn't like this is going cripple ANS which is already one of the biggest (if not the biggest) online paintball retailers in the U.S. Decision has been finalized and we can all move on.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:30 PM #620
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I totally support this but it won't make me stop shopping at ANS or anything...

It's like if they pulled a brand of butter from Wal-Mart, you'd still go there because they have everything else you need. You'd just need to take another stop on the way home if you needed toast the next day.
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:34 AM #621
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ANS is shady anyways.

Atleast they were selling real macdev guns instead of milling knock offs...
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