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Old 01-25-2014, 04:50 PM #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso View Post
Actually that may not be fine. In its purest sense, MAP really does minimum advertised price, however many times the manufacturer may say no discounts, no coupons, etc. Pretty much they can say if a customer buys this, they MUST pay $x. That is why sometimes you'll see a product where if you buy it, you get something else thrown in for free, for example, buy this gun, and get a free mask. They're still selling the gun for $X, and taking a "loss" on the mask (they're actually making more on the gun than their loss on the mask so they still come out ahead). Sometimes even this is invalid. Every policy is different and depends on what the manufacturer and the retailer agree on.

This, of course, excludes all "under the table" or other personal deals.
MAP applies to publicly advertised prices. Manufacturers cannot dictate what a business charges for the product it sells. We ran into this all the time when I was in retail outdoor power equipment. ANS is clearly in the wrong here. But maybe this is a statement that prices are starting to get out of control. Yes there are always cheaper alternatives, but what does the sport gain by having a marker that costs $2000?
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:55 PM #212
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Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
You're making statements that I don't know that I agree with. I am not 100% sure that ANS gets a significantly better price then the local brick and mortar store. It is likely that they (used to) get some pricing advantage, but the scale is not something that either of us is knowledgeable about. The frustration for the brick and mortars is that they bought the marker expecting to bank a certain profit on the sale of the marker, and that margin is now compromised by another (previously) authorized distribution channel. That is likely their gripe and it is legitimate. And they've got the right to go back to MacDev and demand relief for this. Here is where we will disagree on this and likely stay on opposite sides. It does matter to me and I will factor it in when making my purchases. You may not and that is your right, but I have, I do and I will continue to factor ANS's behavior into my purchasing decisions. Again, I am not sure how/where you are drawing this from. It could also be that the brick and mortar stores aren't getting such a terrible price on MacDev (in comparison to ANS) but instead they are making a large markup to support MAP as they need to make more $$ per marker sale than ANS. If your point is that we need to stop screwing the brick and mortars then I 100% agree with that. Maybe we're just viewing that end differently as to whom is screwing them more in this situation, MacDev or ANS. I say ANS, and you appear to be saying MacDev. I'll tell you what, I won't buy from ANS and won't pickup a MacDev marker and we'll be able to agree to disagree on this. Enjoy.
You get a significantly better price if you buy in large quantities
Qty
1-5 = $xxx.xx
5-10. = $xxx.xx
10-20 = $xxx.xx
20+ Call for best price (this is the category ANS & most warehouse stores fall into

Last edited by sstiggy : 01-25-2014 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:58 PM #213
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:07 PM #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
You're making statements that I don't know that I agree with. I am not 100% sure that ANS gets a significantly better price then the local brick and mortar store. It is likely that they (used to) get some pricing advantage, but the scale is not something that either of us is knowledgeable about.
The facts (as I understand them) are ANS dropped the price from 1499 to 1099 - so the only alternative to me being right, is that they were selling the guns at a loss.

So, if we assume they were not, it stands to reason their purchase price is below 1099, and they viewed their profit margin as satisfactory at 1099, despite the MacDev products probably not being their highest volume high end guns in the US market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
The frustration for the brick and mortars is that they bought the marker expecting to bank a certain profit on the sale of the marker, and that margin is now compromised by another (previously) authorized distribution channel. That is likely their gripe and it is legitimate. And they've got the right to go back to MacDev and demand relief for this.
Agreed, and I fully appreciate that part.... and I am not debating that at all.

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Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
Here is where we will disagree on this and likely stay on opposite sides. It does matter to me and I will factor it in when making my purchases. You may not and that is your right, but I have, I do and I will continue to factor ANS's behavior into my purchasing decisions.
I have very little knowledge of ANS, I do not even know who owns it... and for the purpose of this debate, I don't care.

It is also obvious ANS broke an agreement with the manufacturer, be that written or not - so no need to debate that part either.... they were definitely wrong to do that

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
Again, I am not sure how/where you are drawing this from. It could also be that the brick and mortar stores aren't getting such a terrible price on MacDev (in comparison to ANS) but instead they are making a large markup to support MAP as they need to make more $$ per marker sale than ANS.

If your point is that we need to stop screwing the brick and mortars then I 100% agree with that. Maybe we're just viewing that end differently as to whom is screwing them more in this situation, MacDev or ANS. I say ANS, and you appear to be saying MacDev. I'll tell you what, I won't buy from ANS and won't pickup a MacDev marker and we'll be able to agree to disagree on this.
I am drawing it from the fact that a retailer has a sustainable profit margin on the product, despite dropping the price $ 400.

It leaves us with one of two possibilities:

1. MacDev is grossly overcharging the small retailers, for a product they are comfortable selling to large retailers at a significantly lower price.... thereby in fact screwing the small retailers over (in most industries, volume based discounts to retailers are in single digit percentages).

Or

2. MacDev is forcing consumers to overpay $ 400 on a product, because they are enforcing a very high profit margin for all the retailers (irrespective of size), through the MAP.

Either way, the consumers are getting screwed here, and that is my gripe.

I'll put it another way:

Are you comfortable paying a paintball store $ 400+ for selling you a paintball gun?

Would you be happy paying a $ 400 surcharge on any other $ 1500 product you buy in life?
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:14 PM #215
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I'm not made of money.....So if someone offers me a great deal on a product i want....why wouldn't I take em up on it. My local field's "pro shop" is a shed with a garage door on it. I ask him of he can get me what i want at a better or equal to ANS or any other business' sale price if not then i go elsewhere I'm not interested in how well big or small business or manufactures do or profit. I work hard for my money they should too. I think MD has every to sell to whomever they want and after someone pays them (MD) in full they have the right do what ever they like with the item they purchased. Now also if someone makes an agreement breaks it, it makes you a liar and a shi**y person. Sounds like everyone is kind of a jerk in this situation and its because MAP is really a flawed system that needs revision.
MAP is there to ensure that everyone selling the product makes a fair share of money on current products and keeps companies like Walmart, Home Depot, Best Buy, etc on the same page as their smaller competitors. I know that our store does not have the same purchasing power as them and we cannot negotiate the same bulk deals that they can.

At the hardware store I work at, we compete directly with Home Depot during the BBQ season.
If Home Depot in my home town decided to have a spring sale on on Weber Genisis EP310 BBQs they cannot advertise the price lower then the MAP. You betcha we would be up in arms with our distributor (who also handles Home Depot Canada's account) and start reconsidering stocking their product line anymore.

As stated before there are ways around MAP (Free goodies/services to entice the consumer to purchase from you within reason).

We have talked to some of our distributors in paintball about the actions of other retailers because if they are not going to help us, why should we support their product line and make them money?
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:14 PM #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
It leaves us with one of two possibilities:

1. MacDev is grossly overcharging the small retailers, for a product they are comfortable selling to large retailers at a significantly lower price.... thereby in fact screwing the small retailers over (in most industries, volume based discounts to retailers are in single digit percentages).

Or

2. MacDev is forcing consumers to overpay $ 400 on a product, because they are enforcing a very high profit margin for all the retailers (irrespective of size), through the MAP.

Either way, the consumers are getting screwed here, and that is my gripe
I just want to pause and acknowledge the glory of the unfounded assertion. It's always a goody and so much funnier when the person doing it has no real idea they are presenting made up ideas in their head as fact.

Thanks for this moment of entertainment, it was priceless!
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:22 PM #217
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
I just want to pause and acknowledge the glory of the unfounded assertion. It's always a goody and so much funnier when the person doing it has no real idea they are presenting made up ideas in their head as fact.

Thanks for this moment of entertainment, it was priceless!
You are welcome.

Now, snide comment aside, how about you tell me why it was unfounded assertion?
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:32 PM #218
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That you have to buy a MacDev marker.

There is still a market in markers, if you think someone else is offering a better value feel free to purchase that instead.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:43 PM #219
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That you have to buy a MacDev marker.

There is still a market in markers, if you think someone else is offering a better value feel free to purchase that instead.
It should be obvious to most, that this is not a "MacDev issue" - it's an industry issue.

I disagree with forcing retailers to sell at MAP - and as a consumer, I'd welcome saving 25%+ on my paintball purchases, for the price of half the retailers going out of business.

If people think our little paintball cocoon, is immune the market forces at work in the world, they are naive.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:44 PM #220
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The way I see it, MacDev is being somewhat greedy.

Someone mentioned Wal Mart early on in the post, I used to work there closely with our reps and dealers etc for Cell Phones. And if ANS gear works any way like Wal Mart did it would pretty much go like this.

They have a contract with MacDev to sell their products. MacDev sells them to ANS for sale. ANS Gear pays that up front before the marker. (Say for ease of use MacDev sells them to ANS for 1000 bucks.) MSRP or MAP or whatever you use is 1500. ANS sits on them for a year, none selling. Decide to lower the price to 1099. SO they're still making 99 dollars profit. MacDev already has their money. BUT MacDev notices their website/ company store loses sales because ANS gear has their own sale. They freak out and pull the contract because they aren't making anymore money from their deal with ANS gear. They've already gotten paid as per the agreement, now their mad as they feel ANS went behind their back, even though ANS gear obviously was just sitting on the markers and not making any profit off of them.

The way I see it MacDev is mad because they want profits and ANS gear didn't want to sit on useless stock?
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:47 PM #221
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That's ans's problem not macdev's. They signed an agreement the same as me to sell stuff at a certain price. If they didn't want to be sitting on inventory then they shouldnt have bought so much....
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:52 PM #222
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So this MAP pricing is supposed to "level the playing field" between online giants and mom and pop shops....

Sounds like its just price fixing that the industry is trying to pass off as charity.
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:58 PM #223
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Originally Posted by insixdays777 View Post
So this MAP pricing is supposed to "level the playing field" between online giants and mom and pop shops....

Sounds like its just price fixing that the industry is trying to pass off as charity.
no, it's the industry trying to keep the mom and pop shops in business by allowing them to sell at the same prices as the big shops
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:24 PM #224
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at $1099, ANS was not making much off the GT but they certainly were not selling for a loss.

Either way, they cant be doing this. The gun is priced at $1500. If you dont want to pay that much, call a dealer and negotiate. MAP is the advertised price. You cannot advertise lower than MAP. Its ****ing easy to understand, the way some of you take it is ridiculous. ANS takes advantage of manufacturers because they are so big. MAC DEV wont stand for it and you point fingers at them? if you dont like the price, dont buy the gun or call a dealer and offer a lower price.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:27 PM #225
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Every Industry now has MAP. Nation Wide average mark up from Wholesale to retail is 37.598%. You pay this mark up on food, video games, boats, cars and homes. Some of you may want to take some real business classes to understand how things really work. I am sorry if you feel a store is ripping you off for charging said markup, that is just life.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:31 PM #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
It should be obvious to most, that this is not a "MacDev issue" - it's an industry issue.

I disagree with forcing retailers to sell at MAP - and as a consumer, I'd welcome saving 25%+ on my paintball purchases, for the price of half the retailers going out of business.

If people think our little paintball cocoon, is immune the market forces at work in the world, they are naive.
I never said it was a MacDev issue. I said there exists competition and a market between manufacturers, and like any industry a manufacturer is under no obligation to create competition between its own retail and distribution network. Distribution and support is a part of a product's value - something that is well within a manufacturer's interest to protect.

It's not like MacDev is directly profiting from setting an MAP - indeed, they're reducing their sales numbers (today) by doing so. But they're also protecting the value of their brand, and protecting their long term interests.

If you don't think that is worth it, there are plenty of other options on the market. If Dye and MacDev coordinated their prices, THAT is price fixing.

On a side note, for the reasons I illustrated above MAP exists nearly everywhere, to think it's limited to the "paintball cocoon" is naive.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:41 PM #227
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I think it's ironic that Pbnation (and Ebay) has in effect cannibalized and to a certain degree controls, the pricing of paintball markers. The B/S/T as a secondary market offers a much cheaper avenue then buying new. For a lot of players the trade off of a used marker that costs 50% less is worth it.

I would be led to think that ANS was trying to compete with the secondary market as much as off loading inventory that isn't exactly selling quickly.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:00 PM #228
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Originally Posted by insixdays777 View Post
So this MAP pricing is supposed to "level the playing field" between online giants and mom and pop shops....

Sounds like its just price fixing that the industry is trying to pass off as charity.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:01 PM #229
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The price break on large orders is kind of like a reward for taking the risk of buying more than you might be able to sell. Was ANS required to buy huge orders? No. But they thought they could move them.

The MAP ensures that the reward is still just a reward and not an advantage over the smaller stores. If ANS and M&Ppb both sell at MAP then ANS makes more profit per each sold. But, if ANS goes below MAP then they might make the same profit per each as M&Ppb but are getting all of the sales because their price to the consumer is lower. Now that risk they took earlier isn't a risk so much as an advantage. By selling under, they can corner the market and still make out. Not exactly fair.

If ANS absolutely NEEDS to sell under MAP to get sales then I would say that the risk they got rewarded for earlier, didn't work out in their favor. But due to MAP they can't go undercutting M&Ppb. If ANS was really in a bind they could have just advertised as "Call for Pricing" and then sell under MAP. Is it right? I don't think so but it's still less damaging to M&Ppb than violating MAP. I'm actually looking at an ad for 1800paintball in an issue of paintball2xtremes from 02'. Defiants and Angel LCDs are listed as Call for Pricing. I'd bet the farm that if you called, they would be under MAP. But at least they had enough respect for Bob Long, WDP and smaller businesses to not just print it.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:11 PM #230
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no, it's the industry trying to keep the mom and pop shops in business by allowing them to sell at the same prices as the big shops
And why should I as consumer pay for those mom and pop shops to be kept alive?

It's a weird kind of capitalism/socialism merged philosophy

Either way, local shops do very little for paintball in these digital times.... It wasn't like that 20 years ago - back then they had big impact.

What makes this whole debate skewed, is that most paintballers dislike the idea of them vanishing, because we all know a guy who has such a shop.

So, people debate with heart, rather than rationally.... but that will not change the fact that society has doomed all these shops, some of them just don't know it yet.

The physical paintball shop of the future, has just as much relevance as a music store.... and until paintball realize that, I continue to overpay for my paintball goods.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:14 PM #231
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Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
at $1099, ANS was not making much off the GT but they certainly were not selling for a loss.

Either way, they cant be doing this. The gun is priced at $1500. If you dont want to pay that much, call a dealer and negotiate. MAP is the advertised price. You cannot advertise lower than MAP. Its ****ing easy to understand, the way some of you take it is ridiculous. ANS takes advantage of manufacturers because they are so big. MAC DEV wont stand for it and you point fingers at them? if you dont like the price, dont buy the gun or call a dealer and offer a lower price.
Which essentially means an online dealer has to establish a call centre, to be able to compete with physical shops? - Well ok, that sounds fair.... meanwhile I would be more than happy to pay less, without having to pay for a call centre!
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