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Old 01-24-2014, 12:07 PM #85
DJ Paris_82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knis2me View Post
Suck it up guys. As stated most if the photographers are not doing it to make money so why not let those that are trying to make a profit, have full access instead of having to work around free lances in the way. You will also see higher quality work. IMO its a smart move for PSP but you will always have cheap people crying.
I do it for love of the game and to make money to ensure its done right. So coming from someone who makes money doing it right and delivers a quality level of work, it still pushes me away. Yes I manage to turn a profit unlike others, however my profit is not $1500!
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:10 PM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Paris_82 View Post
I do it for love of the game and to make money to ensure its done right. So coming from someone who makes money doing it right and delivers a quality level of work, it still pushes me away. Yes I manage to turn a profit unlike others, however my profit is not $1500!
I'm with Fierce Photo on this. I do it because I love paintball, and it allows me to still be around the sport I love, even though I don't get to play much anymore. This move just leaves that much more of a sour taste in my mouth for professional paintball.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:21 PM #87
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Originally Posted by n8tdogg View Post
Looks like I'll be the guy taking selfies at the 50.....

lmao
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:27 PM #88
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Originally Posted by outkast kid View Post
.

I've had to go as far as putting players on blast on my Facebook page just to get them to cough up 60 bucks for their share of a photo fee for an event that was already over for 3 months.

Paintball players have a lot of money to play paintball but as soon as you ask them for a fraction of that money to cover photos, their pockets are magically empty.
This is impossibly true, players have all the money in the world a couple practices before the event, but then friday rolls around and they will get it to you later... followed by dodging your for the next couple weeks. Can't always assume the teams going to follow through
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:31 PM #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Paris_82 View Post
I do it for love of the game and to make money to ensure its done right.

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Old 01-24-2014, 12:34 PM #90
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Originally Posted by hellsing View Post
This is impossibly true, players have all the money in the world a couple practices before the event, but then friday rolls around and they will get it to you later... followed by dodging your for the next couple weeks. Can't always assume the teams going to follow through
Where is all this money you speak of? How do i get that?
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:42 PM #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knis2me View Post
You will also see higher quality work.
Mmmmmm no, no you won't. You'll see less high quality work because most of the high quality photographers can no longer or will no longer shoot a PSP event.

Anyone still naive enough to think that photographers were out there to make money, please gently pull your head from your rear end.

Never once did I think man, really can't wait for PSP season, gotta make that extra money! It's more along the lines of having to spend that extra money.

I shot paintball because it was fun, full of action and because I wanted to help promote the sport. It's a hobby, not a job. That goes for every single photographer. None of us are out there because it's our job. We did it just because we really liked to.

For me, that bridge has been burned.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:42 PM #92
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I work in event planning for healthcare executives which typically hold events much larger than psp events and this is just ridiculous.
Way to limit your coverage PSP.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:44 PM #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_kwa View Post
Photographer's should all boycott first PSP.

I bet they'd have a change of heart after that...
Photographers don't have a choice, 99% of them will be missing every PSP event unless these rules change. There is a message board outside of pbnation that photographers/videographers are posting in at this very minute and all of the smaller companies are already throwing in the towel and moving to different leagues. It doesn't make sense for them to travel to these events to lose hundreds of dollars and it also doesn't make sense for players to dish out extra hundreds on top of the fees that they are already paying. This model is just not going to work out for most photographers, videographers, and players.

The PSP could give a DAMN about the smaller companies because essentially when one bigger companies pays $1200 per event for a pass, thats equivalent to 8 smaller companies paying $150 per pass. So yes essentially, they are going to weed out the smaller companies. The bigger companies will have to start overcharging, people aren't going to be able to afford it, and then the death of paintball media comes.

Basically if the players want to support the smaller companies, they have to boycott the bigger conglomerates and not support/hire them, so they suffer too. Otherwise you players will be paying ~400 dollars per event for photos vs. the normal charges of ~150 per event. It is obvious that these bigger companie(s) met together with the PSP and demanded to start mandating these things.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:50 PM #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen9210 View Post
While the numbers you ran actually do create a profit, you are leaving out several key points. First of all, photos are not a teams first priority. Many teams complain about paying $100-150 per team, and often struggled to come up with the money. Also, you are failing to think about the economics of your derived profit.

Each photographer works ~11 hours a day x 3 days = 33 hours.
$200 profit / 33 hours = $6.06 per hour.
(Your profit is not including the fact that he or she must buy a $5 cheeseburger in between quick points, and will probably drink another $4 worth of water at the event to stay hydrated...but we can just leave that out...)

Now you have to factor in the countless hours of transferring and processing the photos, as well as the time away from their daily job/other paying clients.

After all that, is the event even profitable anymore? I would argue not...
Ref an event and let me know what your hourly pay is after taking care of flight/hotel/food/transportation, if you even manage to net a profit that is. I'd be willing to bet there are many refs that lost money going to Riverside if they had to fly in from the east coast.

Before we spawn a refs vs photographers war let me emphasize that the point is not us vs you, it's that we understand photographers do it for love of the sport and the experience, not just money if there is any, and you aren't the only ones who show up expecting to more or less break even. Anyone that's worked in paintball, especially tournament paintball, knows that you came to the wrong place if you want to make money.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:55 PM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outkast kid View Post
Mmmmmm no, no you won't. You'll see less high quality work because most of the high quality photographers can no longer or will no longer shoot a PSP event.

Anyone still naive enough to think that photographers were out there to make money, please gently pull your head from your rear end.

Never once did I think man, really can't wait for PSP season, gotta make that extra money! It's more along the lines of having to spend that extra money.

I shot paintball because it was fun, full of action and because I wanted to help promote the sport. It's a hobby, not a job. That goes for every single photographer. None of us are out there because it's our job. We did it just because we really liked to.

For me, that bridge has been burned.

Well said I have never charged I did it for the sport and for the players and to spend time with my son since he is always at the paintball field the I have always put all the photos on my FB page for the players to have. Sometimes it not always about money
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:04 PM #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
Ref an event and let me know what your hourly pay is after taking care of flight/hotel/food/transportation, if you even manage to net a profit that is. I'd be willing to bet there are many refs that lost money going to Riverside if they had to fly in from the east coast.

Before we spawn a refs vs photographers war let me emphasize that the point is not us vs you, it's that we understand photographers do it for love of the sport and the experience, not just money if there is any, and you aren't the only ones who show up expecting to more or less break even. Anyone that's worked in paintball, especially tournament paintball, knows that you came to the wrong place if you want to make money.
Now imagine PSP charging you a yearly fee of $2500, let's say for training to remain "competent". How much would that suck!?!

Just goes to show you where the priorities are for PSP. If you're not even making good by your REFS (which, without, your event could NOT happen) then how should ANYONE expect anything good to come from that league!?!!?
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:05 PM #97
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In my opinion this is ****ty for the people who did it for the love of the sport and the players. There will be no more local photographers who get to go to events and shoot for their friends and their local teams. Honestly I stopped doing PBphotography a long time ago because I wasnt dedicated or talented enough to make an actually living (or even profit) from it but I didnt mind it. I loved going to the events, sitting in the grass just trying to get a cool diving picture, or a photo of someone getting blasted. Hell i've been bunkered myself in games but I loved it and i loved that my friends got to go through and see themselves doing all these cool things. Its a shame that this opportunity for new photographers is gone, I know even though I never made money it was some of the best weekends of my life and Im sad that others will not be able to experience this now that the PSP is (Growing up)
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:20 PM #98
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Originally Posted by eforce View Post
You're assuming photographers willing to pay for the pass won't use the full season option. You're also assuming solo work. If you crunch the numbers for a trio of photographers under the same "company" and combine hotel/rental/gas costs, you're looking at $216 per team using your numbers to break even. At $250/team each photographer takes home $200 per event after covering their costs. That doesn't include any income from selling individual photos to various media outlets.
You're still missing a big part. For a 3-day event, we'd have to take off thursday through sunday, possibly even monday to account for travel. Thats 2 to 4 days off from potentially working a normal job. Then when getting back home, it takes a few days/weeks to process the photos, more time spent away from a job or at least some very late nights. Then, photo gear is not cheap and nor does it last forever. Maintenance and depreciation are additional costs that get overlooked by the "we expect photos for free" people, and Lane.
I never shot paintball to make money. Sure there were events where I could come out in the black, but I never expected it. I did it for the life experiences, the travels, being with guys who I only talk to online since they live across the country, and for the fun of it.

Like Deimus said, acceptance needs to be based on skill/experience. Some sort of media pass fee is to be expected, as is access to the pro field. Put someone in charge of the media acceptance/restriction process who actually knows photo/video, and actually make it worth their while so it doesnt go away after an event(Gary @ Chicago 2011?). Instead of restricting access to those who have a sugar daddy to bankroll everything, provide access to those who deserve it, and who have worked their way up the ranks.

I cant think of a single advantage for the PSP to use this system. Packed sidelines/"bad" spectator experience? Ive shot a decent amount of national events, both PSP and that other league, and the only times I could possibly complain about "packed sidelines" would be at HB, and finals games on the pro field at Cup. Sure I had to move around a guy here and there, but thats completely reasonable and expected. Unless they plan on putting PBA on all fields, packed sidelines is just a scapegoat. They want to move in a more professional direction? Nope, this just makes it a money game for the "for-hire" guys. Help the teams? Please. This will just piss them off as they will either have to pay alot extra/not be able to afford the legit photographers who are just trying to breaking even, pay a typical amount for ****ty photographer who provides a large amount of ****ty images, or not get a photographer at all and hope one of the media outlets get a single photo of them.

Im glad Ive stepped away from the PSP. I was looking forward to MAO again this year to reunite with "my teams", but I guess Ill just be a spectator and not their photographer. I feel bad for all the guys who are out there busting their *** providing teams with legitimate photos, and for all the teams who support the photogs and realize what we/they are going through, and that the price paid ultimately reflects the quality of the photos they get.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:22 PM #99
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Now this thread is heating up... REVOLUTION!!! Hell yeah!
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:32 PM #100
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The reasonable solution would have been to REQUIRE, and not make exceptions, to pre-registering as media via APPA prior to the event. The PSP would require each photographer to submit 10 paintball photographs/publications that they have taken to be reviewed prior to acceptance as a PSP quality photographer. With each application, a photographer must send in a nominal application fee (to help offset the costs of time in review). Upon acceptance, the photographer must pay a registration fee for their Media Pass for 2014, and a nominal per-event fee to cover the event.

These passes would be restricted to divisional fields only. The professional fields would apply the heftier fees (understandably so, with the success of PBA).
In theory that sounds awesome, but that would actually require someone involved with PSP to review a resume/portfolio for each person that wants to take pictures. Do you honestly think the PSP would pay an employee to sit there and do these reviews before giving out a pass?
Easy solution: charge $1500 to weed out all "hobbyists"
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:32 PM #101
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looks like i'm gonna have to buy GoPro mounted on my gun.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:34 PM #102
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looks like i'm gonna have to buy GoPro mounted on my gun.
Bet they try and charge you $1200 as a media agent.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:36 PM #103
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In theory that sounds awesome, but that would actually require someone involved with PSP to review a resume/portfolio for each person that wants to take pictures. Do you honestly think the PSP would pay an employee to sit there and do these reviews before giving out a pass?
Easy solution: charge $1500 to weed out all "hobbyists"
Sadly enough, I could come up with a list of people who would do this for free, and who have the knowledge/experience, just for the love of this paintball photography, myself included even though I may not be as seasoned as some of the other guys.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:39 PM #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallen9210 View Post
While the numbers you ran actually do create a profit, you are leaving out several key points. First of all, photos are not a teams first priority. Many teams complain about paying $100-150 per team, and often struggled to come up with the money. Also, you are failing to think about the economics of your derived profit.

Each photographer works ~11 hours a day x 3 days = 33 hours.
$200 profit / 33 hours = $6.06 per hour.
(Your profit is not including the fact that he or she must buy a $5 cheeseburger in between quick points, and will probably drink another $4 worth of water at the event to stay hydrated...but we can just leave that out...)

Now you have to factor in the countless hours of transferring and processing the photos, as well as the time away from their daily job/other paying clients.

After all that, is the event even profitable anymore? I would argue not...
so much this. especially what I bolded.

I don't think there are many photographers covering paintball because they turn a profit each event. I do it because I love this sport and I understand this is a labor of love.
If I break even with it, I consider myself thankful. Just from shooting local events, I know teams don't want to pay a lot for a dedicated photographer, which makes this fee so much more asinine.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:51 PM #105
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The PSP seems its moving to treat photographers/videographers similar to nation ATV motocross circuit I attended a few years back. Where one photo/video group bought up all rights to shoot the divisional races and news/magazine photographers were only out on the track during the pro races. There’s nothing really a photographer on his or her own can do to compete with that, so the few opportunities available are now reduced even more. Hopefully the regional tournaments will stay available.
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