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Old 01-10-2014, 03:00 PM #64
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Article of faith of course. I mean, this conversation isn't really about man though so that's neither here nor there. when talking about the Christian God, you have to at least accept that the qualities ascribed to him are an accurate representation or the entire thing falls apart rather fast.
That's pretty much what I was getting at. Faith; my main hurdle I just can't accept for such extreme claims.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:18 PM #65
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That's pretty much what I was getting at. Faith; my main hurdle I just can't accept for such extreme claims.
well that's on you, obviously, and seeing as how you have no belief in God as the creator and sustainer of heaven and earth, then there's no reason to expect you would. My point is, if anyone wants to talk about God in a Christian context, then they need to at least entertain the thought that the qualities are accurate, otherwise you can't even talk about it. Again, the faith of people doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the question of God's goodness, perfection and so on.
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Old 01-10-2014, 04:35 PM #66
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Good, bad, perfect, imperfect... they're all human constructs.

What a fruitless argument.
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Old 01-10-2014, 05:19 PM #67
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OK Mr. Buzzkillington
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:31 PM #68
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well that's on you, obviously, and seeing as how you have no belief in God as the creator and sustainer of heaven and earth, then there's no reason to expect you would. My point is, if anyone wants to talk about God in a Christian context, then they need to at least entertain the thought that the qualities are accurate, otherwise you can't even talk about it. Again, the faith of people doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the question of God's goodness, perfection and so on.
Oh, I know. That was definitely more of a tangent than anything else. I'm incredibly bored and haven't had a drink since New Year's.

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Good, bad, perfect, imperfect... they're all human constructs.

What a fruitless argument.
I hate your avvy.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:28 PM #69
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OK Mr. Buzzkillington
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:35 PM #70
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Good, bad, perfect, imperfect... they're all human constructs.
1) Did you just presuppose mete-ethical relativism as a fact? And declare anything else "fruitless"? That's bold to say the least.

2) Doesn't this also fall under martian's notion of "entertaining the idea"? The traditional Christian narrative presupposes moral realism. If you aren't willing to begin from that standpoint obviously the conversation is going to be meaningless.
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:23 AM #71
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1) Did you just presuppose mete-ethical relativism as a fact? And declare anything else "fruitless"? That's bold to say the least.
Define "fact" for me while we're down here. And I didn't declare anything else fruitless, only that the discussion was fruitless.

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The traditional Christian narrative presupposes moral realism.
How many people in this sub do you think are aware of this apart from me, you, martian and maybe a couple others?
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:09 PM #72
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Murder = the great flood, god murdered nearly the entire population of the planet... accept for Noah's family.

Deceit = god misled Abraham into sacrificing his son Isaac, causing Abraham some serious anguish... all the while, god knew that he would not have Abraham actually go through with the sacrifice.

These are just some quick examples right off the top of my head. You want more examples?
Murder implies an unrighteous cause.

God has tested man's faith in multiple cases, Job perhaps being the most notable.

Neither one of your examples support your claim. Maybe some more would help.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:53 PM #73
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Define "fact" for me while we're down here.
My understanding of truth (a fact simply being those things to which a true statement refers) leans between supervaluationism in a classical context (due to the problem of vagueness) and favor Łukasiewicz (L3 specifically) over Kleene in nonclassical contexts.

I'm not sure how that's relevant here. My point was simply to note that your presumed meta-ethical relativism is far from consensus and in fact lacks both historical and modern support in most theological and philosophical circles. Also, the arguments from respect and disagreement are fallacious and downright silly tbh.

Finally, this has little to do with are argument because the entirety of Christian dogma (which we must presuppose when considering the qualities/actions of God) supports moral realism as far as I can tell (with the exception of perhaps some early gnostics but I don't have the background to answer that).

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How many people in this sub do you think are aware of this apart from me, you, martian and maybe a couple others?
Very few unfortunately.
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Old 01-11-2014, 02:47 PM #74
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I'm not sure how that's relevant here. My point was simply to note that your presumed meta-ethical relativism is far from consensus and in fact lacks both historical and modern support in most theological and philosophical circles.
When you mentioned it the first time I did some reading, that is not the impression I got. Theological circles perhaps, as any theological position seems it would inherently require moral realism.

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Finally, this has little to do with are argument because the entirety of Christian dogma (which we must presuppose when considering the qualities/actions of God) supports moral realism as far as I can tell (with the exception of perhaps some early gnostics but I don't have the background to answer that).
I'm not particularly interested in storytime, that was my main point with the post you seem to take issue with.

Side note: the level to which philosophers utterly BUTCHER physics is truly painful to read.
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:10 PM #75
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It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a hard on for specialization and actually put effort in producing individuals who are well rounded. Really, what do I know, I'm just a mal adjusted aspie with weight issues.
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:19 PM #76
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The number of philosophers who've drawn parallels between relativity and relativism while completely missing that it is absolutely nothing more than a coincidence of language is utterly astounding.
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:32 PM #77
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I'm happy I haven't run into that. Thuper lame.
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Old 01-11-2014, 04:41 PM #78
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My favorites are the ones who invoke quantum without a modicum of mathematical understanding. Everything they say is slightly wrong as a result of that additional degree of separation, since our language and traditional perceptions of the world are ill equipped to handle those ideas.
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Old 01-11-2014, 05:38 PM #79
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Sounds like this dude I knew who was OK, then he started doing acid and DMT. Overnight he became amateur Wikipedia philosopher, everything he believed was in some way tied to pop quantum physics. Double slit this, ****ing vision quest that. Thank God he ended up moving to San Fran. Of course, the ONE time I went to San Fran, I was smoking a cigarette outside this random bar we were at and this guy just happens to be walking down the street, notices us and decides to delouse us with his tales of druggery and go nowhere music career. ugh.

Seriously, psychedelic users are some of the worst people on the planet. I mean all the claims about the "ego-shattering" experience come off as "ego-reinforcement" in practice.

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Old 01-11-2014, 06:38 PM #80
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Good, bad, perfect, imperfect... they're all human constructs.
I strongly disagree with this notion.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:42 PM #81
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My favorites are the ones who invoke quantum without a modicum of mathematical understanding. Everything they say is slightly wrong as a result of that additional degree of separation, since our language and traditional perceptions of the world are ill equipped to handle those ideas.
Ironic because there are many physicists who lack an understanding of the statistical underlayment of their field as well. Particularly those that don't understand the implications of inferential statistics.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:18 PM #82
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Ironic because there are many physicists who lack an understanding of the statistical underlayment of their field as well. Particularly those that don't understand the implications of inferential statistics.
This didn't work the last time you tried it and butchered it.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:29 PM #83
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This didn't work the last time you tried it and butchered it.
No, you refused to acknowledge fact and were one of the specific ones I had in mind when I made the comment.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:34 PM #84
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No, you refused to acknowledge fact and were one of the specific ones I had in mind when I made the comment.
That's because you refused to address your flawed understanding of physics and statistics.
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