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Old 01-07-2014, 11:04 PM #43
TheSilentAssassin
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Umami, are you still studying or have you graduated? Just curious. If graduated, what do you do?
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Old 01-08-2014, 08:04 AM #44
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And you would undoubtedly miss the mark.

Furthermore, you seem to be implying that God has no presence in the human mind, and that constraining it in the minds of people through language has no consequence on God.

Is that correct?
It is correct that I don't view God as a byproduct of human cognition.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:02 AM #45
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That's not what I said.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:26 PM #46
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What you said was a loaded statement.

God has presence in the human mind... Kind of, more the human heart but since that is not a literal location we can agree that He exists in human mind.

God is not constrained, but rather our perception and understanding of Him. Our ability to comprehend has little to do with who/ what God is. That said, what we understand has nothing to do with (no consequence on) God.

If God was a byproduct of human cognition then He'd be limited by our capacity, but I don't believe that is true.


All this goes back to what I said about explaining someone like you... I can read about you and think I know who you are, but without a relationship with you it's limited. Hence Christianity. We study God's writings to learn about His character, then try and maintain a relationship with Him to know Him better. None of that means that we'll ever fully understand. I "know" my wife in the same way, yet I'd never pretend to fully understand her.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you the way you're meaning it, so sorry if I'm not answering your question.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:31 PM #47
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God is not constrained, but rather our perception and understanding of Him. Our ability to comprehend has little to do with who/ what God is. That said, what we understand has nothing to do with (no consequence on) God.

If God was a byproduct of human cognition then He'd be limited by our capacity, but I don't believe that is true.
I'm not saying God exists as a byproduct of human cognition.

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All this goes back to what I said about explaining someone like you... I can read about you and think I know who you are, but without a relationship with you it's limited.
And yet because we interact, your understanding of me has consequences and implications on my existence. Same goes for your wife.

The only way to completely divorce God from human understanding is to divorce Him from the world entirely, and I definitely don't agree with that. It's an even greater restriction than giving Him a personality.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:32 PM #48
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And yet because we interact, your understanding of me has consequences and implications on my existence. Same goes for your wife.

The only way to completely divorce God from human understanding is to divorce Him from the world entirely, and I definitely don't agree with that. It's an even greater restriction than giving Him a personality.
I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from? Why do you think that is significant in this context? If I take what I think you're saying to the next step (which I hope is still inline with your logic), but you're saying the relationship is a 2-way street? That means that we have to know God for Him to know us?

If that is what you're implying/ saying, then I don't think I agree. Of what consequence on your existence is our relationship?
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:46 PM #49
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If that is what you're implying/ saying, then I don't think I agree. Of what consequence on your existence is our relationship?
Your understanding of me guides how you interact with me. That, in combination with my understanding of you influences how I respond. Your interactions with me, along with my responses to you, are a part of my existence.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:24 PM #50
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****ing ironic considering your military service and advocacy of fire arm ownership as method of defense of self and property. It's clear that God has moral absolutes regarding the taking of life, which you decry, yet you have your own moral absolutes whos ultimate conclusions result in the same outcome: death.
Your forgetting one big difference between me and god. He claims to be perfect... I've never made such a claim.

Ask yourself this: why would a perfect being need to murder, lie, deceive?
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:54 PM #51
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Your forgetting one big difference between me and god. He claims to be perfect... I've never made such a claim.

Ask yourself this: why would a perfect being need to murder, lie, deceive?
Give examples of when God did any such things.


Umami, I'm going to have to think about how to respond, but I think we're at a point of divergence. I think the issue is what we consider existence itself.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:05 PM #52
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Your forgetting one big difference between me and god. He claims to be perfect... I've never made such a claim.

Ask yourself this: why would a perfect being need to murder, lie, deceive?
You hold God accountable to morality you don't even subscribe to? That has to be the most pedantic argument I've seen in a while.

You believe you know what perfection in an absolute sense is? That's hubris my friend. Our perception is limited by position and time. Most accounts place God at eternity which means God experiences all positions and events in a single instance. Thre is no differentiating between PBOldtimer 30 years ago versus PBOldtimer 3 days from now. lacking that perspective, what the **** do you think you know about perfection?

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Old 01-09-2014, 05:08 PM #53
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Ask yourself this: why would a perfect being need to murder, lie, deceive?
Are you assuming a non-perfect being would have absolute knowledge about that?

edit-

Damn it, Martian.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:42 AM #54
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Give examples of when God did any such things.
Murder = the great flood, god murdered nearly the entire population of the planet... accept for Noah's family.

Deceit = god misled Abraham into sacrificing his son Isaac, causing Abraham some serious anguish... all the while, god knew that he would not have Abraham actually go through with the sacrifice.

These are just some quick examples right off the top of my head. You want more examples?
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:45 AM #55
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lacking that perspective, what the **** do you think you know about perfection?
Perfection is that which is flawless, or that which is incapable of making error. I don't have to be perfect to understand perfection. Also please remember, it is the Christians that claim that god is perfect, not me.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:14 PM #56
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Perfection is that which is flawless, or that which is incapable of making error. I don't have to be perfect to understand perfection. Also please remember, it is the Christians that claim that god is perfect, not me.
My point is, you lack the requisite perspective to determine what the qualities of flawlessness are, let alone, what constitutes an error.

on that note. it's often misconstrued that a perfect being which created an imperfect creature, or universe, must also not be perfect itself. Which is where I assume you are trying to go, but let me stop you right there and tell you something important: that argument is incoherent.

There can only ever be one ultimate. You can't make something else which is ultimate and have it be distinguishable from the first ultimate, because it IS the ultimate. God, being the perfect being, couldn't create a perfect creature, that creature would simply be God by nature of having the quality of perfection.

A human being may be called perfect relative to what it is to be human. The perfect human being, not being God, suffers from a privation of God's perfection and is therefore imperfect and susceptible to error.

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Old 01-10-2014, 12:41 PM #57
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Going with the perspective of Christ being perfect your post has given me something to think about. Thanks Martian.


Murder at it's simplest is man killing man. God killing man would be on par with man killing any animal other than man.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:07 PM #58
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No problem.

indeed, morality, specifically, the ten commandments, are constraints placed on man, by God. God said, you (man) should not kill. He did not say, You and I shouldn't kill.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:25 PM #59
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God, being the perfect being, couldn't create a perfect creature...
I thought god could do anything.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:27 PM #60
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No problem.

indeed, morality, specifically, the ten commandments, are constraints placed on man, by God. God said, you (man) should not kill. He did not say, You and I shouldn't kill.
So god is exempted from the very laws he created? So can we assume that god is permitted to kill, lie, cheat, steal, covet, etc.?

This is starting to remind me when my parents would say: "do as I say, not as I do." I didn't buy it then, and I certainly don't buy it now.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:36 PM #61
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I thought god could do anything.
Take a little more time to understand what I wrote and you should understand how this response doesn't remotely apply.

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So god is exempted from the very laws he created? So can we assume that god is permitted to kill, lie, cheat, steal, covet, etc.?
Given the quality of omnibenevolence, any action on part of God would have an outcome that upholds the highest good. Seeing as how humans lack God's perspective, perfection and ultimate goodness, there is no way man could possibly know the full effect of an action with any foreknowledge or hindsight. It's again incoherent to claim that an action done by God could be wrong/evil/flawed since the outcome is always a universal good.

I don't really care about your petty emotional reactions. They have no relevance to the argument, so stop weaselling around.

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Old 01-10-2014, 01:43 PM #62
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Given the quality of omnibenevolence, any action on part of God would have an outcome that upholds the highest good. Seeing as how humans lack God's perspective, perfection and ultimate goodness, there is no way man could possibly know the full effect of an action with any foreknowledge or hindsight. It's again incoherent to claim that an action done by God could be wrong/evil/flawed since the outcome is always a universal good.
Without knowledge of such things, how are we to determine whether God's actions are actually the ultimate/universal good or not? Assumption?
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:49 PM #63
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Without knowledge of such things, how are we to determine whether God's actions are actually the ultimate/universal good or not? Assumption?
Article of faith of course. I mean, this conversation isn't really about man though so that's neither here nor there. when talking about the Christian God, you have to at least accept that the qualities ascribed to him are an accurate representation or the entire thing falls apart rather fast.
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