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Old 01-04-2014, 03:36 PM #22
Umami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
Describe, not constrain.
There is no difference.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
the God that can be described is not God as it exists
the terms used to describe God are not the things they describe
What evades description is the wholeness of God
description is only a listing of parts
without effort you can experience God
with effort you can understand its effects
both paths approach reality differently
accepting this paradox allows you to access the whole

anything else is just sophistry. good day.
Dudeness that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for what Abides.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.
One experiences without being uptight, or enters a World of Pain,
And investigates complicated cases in order to understand the World.
The Dude digs the style of the Stranger, and the Stranger, the style of the Dude;
They are distinct only in front of the bar.
Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes he eats you
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the ****ing TOE!
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Last edited by Umami : 01-04-2014 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:55 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
There is no difference.
Words and their meanings are limited; God is not. When something is beyond understanding we try to contextualize the attributes. In terms of Christianity, you could describe the physical attributes of Jesus while He was man, but nobody has seen the Father or Spirit. The only way you can even attempt to describe "God" as a holistic entity is to break out His character.

How would I describe "Steve?"

If I hadn't seen your picture all I could use to describe you is my interpretation of who you are by reading your writing... Physicist, politically opinionated, etc. Those are NOT you, but they describe you. I can describe you without constraining you.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:44 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
There is no difference.

EDIT:


Dudeness that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for what Abides.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.
One experiences without being uptight, or enters a World of Pain,
And investigates complicated cases in order to understand the World.
The Dude digs the style of the Stranger, and the Stranger, the style of the Dude;
They are distinct only in front of the bar.
Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes he eats you
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the ****ing TOE!
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:44 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
How would I describe "Steve?"

If I hadn't seen your picture all I could use to describe you is my interpretation of who you are by reading your writing... Physicist, politically opinionated, etc. Those are NOT you, but they describe you. I can describe you without constraining you.
And you would undoubtedly miss the mark.

Furthermore, you seem to be implying that God has no presence in the human mind, and that constraining it in the minds of people through language has no consequence on God.

Is that correct?
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:51 PM #26
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The All Beneficent
The Most Merciful
The King, The Sovereign
The Most Holy
Peace and Blessing
The Guarantor
The Guardian, the Preserver
The Almighty, the Self Sufficient
The Powerful, the Irresistible
The Tremendous
The Creator
The Maker
The Fashioner of Forms
The Ever Forgiving
The All Compelling Subduer
The Bestower
The Ever Providing
The Opener, the Victory Giver
The All Knowing, the Omniscient
The Restrainer, the Straightener
The Expander, the Munificent
The Abaser
The Exalter
The Giver of Honor
The Giver of Dishonor
The All Hearing
The All Seeing
The Judge, the Arbitrator
The Utterly Just
The Subtly Kind
The All Aware
The Forbearing, the Indulgent
The Magnificent, the Infinite
The All Forgiving
The Grateful
The Sublimely Exalted
The Great
The Preserver
The Nourisher
The Reckoner
The Majestic
The Bountiful, the Generous
The Watchful
The Responsive, the Answerer
The Vast, the All Encompassing
The Wise
The Loving, the Kind One
The All Glorious
The Raiser of the Dead
The Witness
The Truth, the Real
The Trustee, the Dependable
The Strong
The Firm, the Steadfast
The Protecting Friend, Patron, and Helper
The All Praiseworthy
The Accounter, the Numberer of All
The Producer, Originator, and Initiator of all
The Reinstater Who Brings Back All
The Giver of Life
The Bringer of Death, the Destroyer
The Ever Living
The Self Subsisting Sustainer of All
The Perceiver, the Finder, the Unfailing
The Illustrious, the Magnificent
The One, the All Inclusive, the Indivisible
The One, the Unique
The Long, the Impregnable, the Everlasting
The All Able
The All Determiner, the Dominant
The Expediter, He who brings forward
The Delayer, He who puts far away
The First
The Last
The Manifest; the All Victorious
The Hidden; the All Encompassing
The Patron
The Self Exalted
The Most Kind and Righteous
The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting
The Avenger
The Pardoner, the Effacer of Sins
The Compassionate, the All Pitying
The Owner of All Sovereignty
The Lord of Majesty and Generosity
The Equitable, the Requiter
The Gatherer, the Unifier
The All Rich, the Independent
The Enricher, the Emancipator
The Withholder, the Shielder, the Defender
The Distresser
The Propitious, the Benefactor
The Light
The Guide
The Incomparable, the Originator
The Ever Enduring and Immutable
The Heir, the Inheritor of All
The Guide, Infallible Teacher, and Knower
The Patient, the Timeless
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:03 PM #27
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did you type all that?
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:43 PM #28
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Looks like a poor copy and pasta job to me.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:18 PM #29
SupraSuper
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Actually my pasta came out just fine.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:20 PM #30
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Originally Posted by SupraSuper View Post
Actually my pasta came out just fine.
Were you the maker of the pasta?

Or were you just the nourisher
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:35 PM #31
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I was the preparer, the ingester, the digester, and the expeller.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:19 AM #32
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the first and the last?
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:26 AM #33
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Consciousness.
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:09 AM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupraSuper View Post
The All Beneficent
The Most Merciful
The King, The Sovereign
The Most Holy
Peace and Blessing
The Guarantor
The Guardian, the Preserver
The Almighty, the Self Sufficient
The Powerful, the Irresistible
The Tremendous
The Creator
The Maker
The Fashioner of Forms
The Ever Forgiving
The All Compelling Subduer
The Bestower
The Ever Providing
The Opener, the Victory Giver
The All Knowing, the Omniscient
The Restrainer, the Straightener
The Expander, the Munificent
The Abaser
The Exalter
The Giver of Honor
The Giver of Dishonor
The All Hearing
The All Seeing
The Judge, the Arbitrator
The Utterly Just
The Subtly Kind
The All Aware
The Forbearing, the Indulgent
The Magnificent, the Infinite
The All Forgiving
The Grateful
The Sublimely Exalted
The Great
The Preserver
The Nourisher
The Reckoner
The Majestic
The Bountiful, the Generous
The Watchful
The Responsive, the Answerer
The Vast, the All Encompassing
The Wise
The Loving, the Kind One
The All Glorious
The Raiser of the Dead
The Witness
The Truth, the Real
The Trustee, the Dependable
The Strong
The Firm, the Steadfast
The Protecting Friend, Patron, and Helper
The All Praiseworthy
The Accounter, the Numberer of All
The Producer, Originator, and Initiator of all
The Reinstater Who Brings Back All
The Giver of Life
The Bringer of Death, the Destroyer
The Ever Living
The Self Subsisting Sustainer of All
The Perceiver, the Finder, the Unfailing
The Illustrious, the Magnificent
The One, the All Inclusive, the Indivisible
The One, the Unique
The Long, the Impregnable, the Everlasting
The All Able
The All Determiner, the Dominant
The Expediter, He who brings forward
The Delayer, He who puts far away
The First
The Last
The Manifest; the All Victorious
The Hidden; the All Encompassing
The Patron
The Self Exalted
The Most Kind and Righteous
The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting
The Avenger
The Pardoner, the Effacer of Sins
The Compassionate, the All Pitying
The Owner of All Sovereignty
The Lord of Majesty and Generosity
The Equitable, the Requiter
The Gatherer, the Unifier
The All Rich, the Independent
The Enricher, the Emancipator
The Withholder, the Shielder, the Defender
The Distresser
The Propitious, the Benefactor
The Light
The Guide
The Incomparable, the Originator
The Ever Enduring and Immutable
The Heir, the Inheritor of All
The Guide, Infallible Teacher, and Knower
The Patient, the Timeless
You forgot a few:
The Jealous One
The Genecidal Maniac
The Destroyer
The Contradictor
The Liar / Deceiver
The Murderer
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:22 PM #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
You forgot a few:
The Jealous One
The Genecidal Maniac
The Destroyer
The Contradictor
The Liar / Deceiver
The Murderer
So brave.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:28 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
So brave.
Why the sarcasm?

If you read the Bible or the Torah or the Quran, one can easily assign my previously stated attributes to god.
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Last edited by PBOldTimer : 01-07-2014 at 12:30 PM. Reason: afterthought
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:34 PM #37
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Nature kills more people than anything (100% mortality rate, last I checked), and you don't call it a murderer. It's just another stupid anthropomorphism.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:43 PM #38
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
Why the sarcasm?

If you read the Bible or the Torah or the Quran, one can easily assign my previously stated attributes to god.
****ing ironic considering your military service and advocacy of fire arm ownership as method of defense of self and property. It's clear that God has moral absolutes regarding the taking of life, which you decry, yet you have your own moral absolutes whos ultimate conclusions result in the same outcome: death.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:01 PM #39
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Gravity exists and it isn't made of anything.
Gravity is one of the physical attributes of Mass. Without Mass, no gravity. Gravity is part of mass which is something we all can touch, see, and feel.

Quote:
The All Beneficent
The Most Merciful
The King, The Sovereign
The Most Holy
Peace and Blessing
The Guarantor
The Guardian, the Preserver
The Almighty, the Self Sufficient
The Powerful, the Irresistible
The Tremendous
The Creator
The Maker
The Fashioner of Forms
The Ever Forgiving
The All Compelling Subduer
The Bestower
The Ever Providing
The Opener, the Victory Giver
The All Knowing, the Omniscient
The Restrainer, the Straightener
The Expander, the Munificent
The Abaser
The Exalter
The Giver of Honor
The Giver of Dishonor
The All Hearing
The All Seeing
The Judge, the Arbitrator
The Utterly Just
The Subtly Kind
The All Aware
The Forbearing, the Indulgent
The Magnificent, the Infinite
The All Forgiving
The Grateful
The Sublimely Exalted
The Great
The Preserver
The Nourisher
The Reckoner
The Majestic
The Bountiful, the Generous
The Watchful
The Responsive, the Answerer
The Vast, the All Encompassing
The Wise
The Loving, the Kind One
The All Glorious
The Raiser of the Dead
The Witness
The Truth, the Real
The Trustee, the Dependable
The Strong
The Firm, the Steadfast
The Protecting Friend, Patron, and Helper
The All Praiseworthy
The Accounter, the Numberer of All
The Producer, Originator, and Initiator of all
The Reinstater Who Brings Back All
The Giver of Life
The Bringer of Death, the Destroyer
The Ever Living
The Self Subsisting Sustainer of All
The Perceiver, the Finder, the Unfailing
The Illustrious, the Magnificent
The One, the All Inclusive, the Indivisible
The One, the Unique
The Long, the Impregnable, the Everlasting
The All Able
The All Determiner, the Dominant
The Expediter, He who brings forward
The Delayer, He who puts far away
The First
The Last
The Manifest; the All Victorious
The Hidden; the All Encompassing
The Patron
The Self Exalted
The Most Kind and Righteous
The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting
The Avenger
The Pardoner, the Effacer of Sins
The Compassionate, the All Pitying
The Owner of All Sovereignty
The Lord of Majesty and Generosity
The Equitable, the Requiter
The Gatherer, the Unifier
The All Rich, the Independent
The Enricher, the Emancipator
The Withholder, the Shielder, the Defender
The Distresser
The Propitious, the Benefactor
The Light
The Guide
The Incomparable, the Originator
The Ever Enduring and Immutable
The Heir, the Inheritor of All
The Guide, Infallible Teacher, and Knower
The Patient, the Timeless
plus all the others.

A belief system without any evidential basis. They call it Faith I believe.

The belief system governs our life and decisions we make. Determines our values and behavior.

The simple fact that it is believed, makes it real. That it governs and affects our lives, make is real. Thus to exist.

'God' is within us. Our soul maybe....

"Created in our own image" in that context is absolutely correct.

Otherwise, it is a completely vain statement written my fallible humans with a big ego, a long time ago.
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Last edited by Boom Master : 01-07-2014 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:26 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Gravity is one of the physical attributes of Mass. Without Mass, no gravity. Gravity is part of mass which is something we all can touch, see, and feel.
That's a gross oversimplification.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:31 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Gravity is one of the physical attributes of Mass. Without Mass, no gravity. Gravity is part of mass which is something we all can touch, see, and feel.
I was going to respond about this but I figured I'd let our resident physicist tackle the more technical aspects of this. I would simply like to point out that despite its flaws, this is still a category mistake. Being an attribute of something is not equivalent to being part of something and does not inhibit the same existential standing. For instance, movement is an attribute of a spaceship but movement itself is not a thing that can be touched or seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post

A belief system without any evidential basis. They call it Faith I believe. The belief system governs our life and decisions we make. Determines our values and behavior. The simple fact that it is believed, makes it real. That it governs and affects our lives, make is real. Thus to exist. 'God' is within us. Our soul maybe.... "Created in our own image" in that context is absolutely correct.
Again, category mistake. And identifying the existence of an apparent belief system (obviously Christianity exists as an idea) is a rather meaningless thing to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Otherwise, it is a completely vain statement written my fallible humans with a big ego, a long time ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
If you read the Bible or the Torah or the Quran, one can easily assign my previously stated attributes to god.
I highly doubt that you have earnestly read either with any hint of cultural context or theological interpretation. Unfortunately, this is the world we live in when we as a culture project notions of "every man's opinion is valid". It values subjectivity over objectivity.

Damn this forum for making me have to be so Burkean...
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Last edited by TheSilentAssassin : 01-07-2014 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:59 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Gravity is one of the physical attributes of Mass. Without Mass, no gravity. Gravity is part of mass which is something we all can touch, see, and feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex17 View Post
That's a gross oversimplification.
It's just incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I was going to respond about this but I figured I'd let our resident physicist tackle the more technical aspects of this. I would simply like to point out that despite its flaws, this is still a category mistake. Being an attribute of something is not equivalent to being part of something and does not inhibit the same existential standing. For instance, movement is an attribute of a spaceship but movement itself is not a thing that can be touched or seen.
From the perspective of General Relativity, mass causes a curvature in the geometry of space. Gravity arises due to this curvature.

From a quantum perspective, mass arises when particles interact with the Higgs field. Due largely to constraints in measurement sensitivity, we have no empirically proven quantum theory of gravity.

In either case as TSA pointed out, you're making an attribution error. It's akin to calling an apple the source of optical light because it interacts with photons.
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