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Old 12-13-2013, 09:58 PM #1
Razgriz2006
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Pm8 Mod Proposal

Preface:
I will have masters degree in Quality systems in May
I have a spare tophat
I have a spare beercan
I am consulting CNC milling engineers for this
My Pm8 is operating right at 185 psi @285 fps right now
DM9s-11s use same bolt kit and operate at 145 psi @ 285 fps
Dm14 operates at 140 psi
I am sorry for all of the annoying threads about Protos I have been making, they are just too close mechanically to the Dyes.



Background
My tank (91 ci) gives me currently 1874 shots per fill
I can only carry 1510 paintballs onto the field

Problem statement:
How can a Proto Matrix 2008 be modified to equal the operating pressure of a Dye matrix 2009-2011 at 285 feet per second.

Objectives:
1. Quieter shot
2. More Perceived Smoothness
3. Be able to call my Pm8 a Pm9.9

Modifications to be Attempted:
1. Tophat Diameter Reduction (detailed further)
2. Bolt back cap trimming (530 mod)
3. Having a section of the interior bolt engine sleeve "bored out" (a write up for a later day)

What I am trying to do in pictures:

Mill off the area indicated in red arrows


Measurements and Math
Inner Tophat diameter = .682 inches

Outer Tophat diameter = .775 inches

Top hat area to be milled length=1.04 inches

I am not sure how thin is too thin for this part but I think a reduction of .08 is the deepest I would be willing to go

Area= π x radius squared x height

π x.385 ^2 x 1.04 = 0.48428907392148098688197032810607
-
π x.3475 ^2 x 1.04 = 0.39454162579005456854218876325423

=0.08974744813142641833978156485184

or about .09 cubic inches increase in dump chamber volume

Questions
1. How much of a pressure reduction would there be in the result of this mod? How much when combined with the 530 mod?
2. How thin is too thin for this grade of aluminum? is .1 inches thick enough to retain shape during operation of the marker? to not break during lubing?
3. Does the cost of this modification and the other two modifications exceed the cost of a Dm9? Does the forward LPR offset this cost?
4. Are there any unforeseen advantages/disadvantages to lowering the pressure?
5. If possible, should the modifications be made to a point that lower than 145 psi operation is feasible?

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!

Last edited by Razgriz2006 : 12-18-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:46 AM #2
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Honestly I think your gun is the best Proto\DM made,why mess with a good thing
especially with the stats you've given
Try your mod on the Rail,NT,and DAM line,they need more help
Adding volume would definitely give you a lower OP,great idea but probably the wrong gun to try it on
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:24 PM #3
Razgriz2006
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I'd really have to hit the books to understand what's going on in an NT. At least at the same level as a Dm anyway.


The funny thing is people in the past did these mods to try to increase efficiency. I specifically want to degrade the efficiency in favor of shot quality. My hope is to get this pm8 to be a poor mans Dm14
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:55 PM #4
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NT's are easy.

If you have spares by all means try it. i think more a more effective strategy would taking material out of the body itself. Also if you havn't tried it, lurkers Eigenring makes DM's shoot money.

Also i've found a well tuned LPR does the most for shot quality, try some polishing on your bolt and some well fitting O-rings. My Damage DM8 bolt would literally fall forward just with gravity alone, and with the LPR tuned it wouldnt even move. The same gun made a ref check his chrono because it shot 297 4 times in a row... Man i wish i didnt sell that thing.

http://www.lurkerpb.com/dmpm/dm9-eigenring/

Last edited by Homelessballerz : 12-15-2013 at 12:01 AM. Reason: I didnt read with comprehension.
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:34 AM #5
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Want a lower OP? Remove the first oring on the bolt tail and up your dwell..
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Old 12-15-2013, 01:00 AM #6
Razgriz2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homelessballerz View Post
http://paintball.newkamikaze.com/sch..._nt_scheme.gif

NT's are easy.

If you have spares by all means try it. i think more a more effective strategy would taking material out of the body itself. Also if you havn't tried it, lurkers Eigenring makes DM's shoot money.

Also i've found a well tuned LPR does the most for shot quality, try some polishing on your bolt and some well fitting O-rings. My Damage DM8 bolt would literally fall forward just with gravity alone, and with the LPR tuned it wouldnt even move. The same gun made a ref check his chrono because it shot 297 4 times in a row... Man i wish i didnt sell that thing.

http://www.lurkerpb.com/dmpm/dm9-eigenring/


yeah I own an eigenring i tried it out and and it made it shoot pretty good but its not what I am going after. You actually have to up your operating pressure a tick to get back up to fps. Also in my particular marker it makes it leak if I dont have an oring on the back cap and that oring gets shredded when I take out the bolt and lube.

I already sent an e-mail to pooty about polishing my bolt. My bolt does not have an even flick test at the moment. it isint bad but there is obviously a section that is slightly bigger just behind the rear bolt bumper. I am hoping polishing takes care of this.

Id really have to get a NT in my hands but im not super qualified. I was just sitting at my desk trying NOT to do an exam paper when I thought of this mod idea. I think I would try to fix the NT's problem with being harsh on paint. If any body has a paintblender one they want to send me on consignment id love the challenge. Maybe in the new year ill buy one for craps.

We all get caught up in the new fangled stuff. Its hard to know that youve got a outstanding performing gun until you have moved on from it.

As for removing the oring.... that would make the high pressure air continue to fill the dump chamber (and out the barrel) even when the ball is gone. and it would also give me a gun that could be cheated with by upping the dwell too high. I might try it to see what happens but i cant go to a tourney with that.

thank you guys for your thoughts
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:52 AM #7
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Think about it. By removing that oring you will be using more air per shot. Basically what you are intending on doing anyway. The truth is, there wouldn't be a whole lot of difference because there would still be a physical obstruction in the way slowing the air down. My guess is it will allow you to drop your pressure roughly 15-20 psi.

Also there are several other mods that you could do... but they might sound a bit extreme. However you would not have to mod the body.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:53 AM #8
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Also I dont really know what you mean by "could be cheated"
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:31 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
Also I dont really know what you mean by "could be cheated"
I dunno i thought of changing the dwell while on the field... not super practical though. would let me shoot 330 fps off the break?
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:36 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
Think about it. By removing that oring you will be using more air per shot. Basically what you are intending on doing anyway. The truth is, there wouldn't be a whole lot of difference because there would still be a physical obstruction in the way slowing the air down. My guess is it will allow you to drop your pressure roughly 15-20 psi.

Also there are several other mods that you could do... but they might sound a bit extreme. However you would not have to mod the body.
I don't think your velocity will go up measurably, if at all, by taking off the front tail oring. That's similar to going from the stock Ion bolt to a dual tail oring'd one. I don't think the velocity of my Ion went up down at all.
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Last edited by tyronejk : 12-18-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 05:08 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyronejk View Post
I don't think your velocity will go up measurable, if at all, by taking off the front tail oring. That's similar to going from the stock Ion bolt to a dual tail oring'd one. I don't think the velocity of my Ion went up at all.
The opposite, actually; by removing the front tail o'ring, the dump chamber will still be fed even after the bolt is completely forward, minimizing the pressure drop (using more air), which should allow him to lower the OP. Hopefully he can also lower the dwell after the polishing job, so efficiency doesn't suffer as much.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:28 AM #12
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What he's saying is that removing that front tail o-ring will likely use more air, but it probably won't have the effect he wants. Like tyrone, I had an Ion with the stock bolt, and when I swapped in an aftermarket bolt that had two tail o-rings that seal the chamber the FPS didn't change.

Taking off that front tail o-ring is probably the easiest and quickest mod to check, so it's not like you can't do it, I just doubt it'll be as effective as volumizing the dump chamber.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:53 AM #13
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The part I was clarifying is that rather than being like going from single o'ring to 2 o'ring tail shaft, it'd be the other way around; and that the velocity wouldn't go up from going from stock to a 2 o'ring tail shaft, if anything it'd shut the feed and improve efficiency but not FPS (depending on how long the valve is open).

On it being much of a difference it's true though, the flow path is too restricted, now turning down the tail shaft section before the aft o'ring... Just make sure to have a spare bolt just in case.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:40 PM #14
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Have you had this machined yet?
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:38 PM #15
Razgriz2006
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not yet. Still talking to all of the cnc people
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:45 PM #16
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This sounds interesting.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:56 PM #17
Razgriz2006
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Results here

special thanks to Firstout for making this happen!

Last edited by Razgriz2006 : 03-02-2014 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:57 PM #18
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Not even a mention? lol.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:30 AM #19
Razgriz2006
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I added some stuff!




^^^ prototype^^^

Last edited by Razgriz2006 : 03-04-2014 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:32 PM #20
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OoooooooOoooh purdy.

How much did this set you back?
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:47 PM #21
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Well... I'm not sure firstout wants me giving prices away but it was in line with some of his other work if you look on his page.
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