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Old 11-20-2013, 11:59 PM #22
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Last week my scenario team went and played walk on with about 20 players. The refs didn't need to split us up, we did it ourselves. While I'm with you that teams shouldn't be stacked, did you talk to the seven players first?

I mean, wouldn't it be better for all involved if the seven regulars took it upon themselves, maybe with a little coaxing, to split themselves up and make things more fun for everyone? Maybe have the four regulars on each side (the seven of them plus you) help build up the fun factor of the other players?

If the players don't split up, and the refs behave like this, then I would completely concour that bringing it up to the refs would be the right thing to do.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:01 AM #23
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I've had issues with this only a few times. Once was involving a "bush ball team/ scenario team" that enjoyed lighting up renters. I was playing pump and was getting frustrated so I know the renters weren't having fun. In the end I called out the group on a local forum and to, their credi, they took responsibility for their actions and hopefully learned to play nice with others.

On the flip side, my last outing involved a huge group of renters coming late in the day and the refs took everyone that had been playing all day (good mix of renters and owners) and put them against the new rental group. I played a single round, at little to no effort and the called it a day. I wasn't going to play another lopsided round like that. It was brutal.

I have a good choice of fields locally so I simply choose to play at other fields when I feel the refs/staff don't run a fair field.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:05 AM #24
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There's nothing wrong with friends or teams wanting to play together. I agree with post above. Did anyone talk to the 7 experienced players, explain the situation and ask them to split up? I guess fortunately for me the fields around where I live make an effort to split teams fairly and I'd say most groups of experienced players understand they may get split up. I've not seen it become an issue too often although lopsided teams do happen. Some rental players are good and some people with good equipment are new. I've also seen where rental groups are less likely or willing to split up. It could be a group of kids or a party, etc. and they simply don't want to split up. This can also cause problems with balancing teams.

What I have seen that works is when the refs have the rentals and the expereinced players each get in their own group and then split the rentals and then split the expereinced players. For the most part this ensures a good mix. Plus if there are enough players just have two groups playing on different fields. A smaller group of expereinced players can be more fun than playing 30 on 30 on a field designed for 10 on 10.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:36 AM #25
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Rental groups aren't the problem not wanting to split up. It's when you go to the field and there's the 4/5/6/7 guys that play together regularly, are all experienced players and are obviously a far higher level than most of the rest, and they want to stick together. Yeah, it's fun for them, but it's no fun to be on the opposite team and know that you're basically just going out there to be cannon fodder. My old field actually had a rule that said anyone who played tournies at the field was not permitted to be teamed up with their tournament teammates in rec play (obviously if there were 4 of them, then both teams would get 2 since there's no way to keep anyone from being together with a teammate). Was one of the best fields ever. You'd almost NEVER have one team stomp another. And because of it, the field would be PACKED every weekend, because people who went there to play had a LOT of fun.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:41 AM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidfiretibby View Post
i hate how because a group of people play every weekend, you think they have no right to play on the same team. regulars have just as much right to play with each other as do the kids who are there for the first time and the kids who play 3 times a year. sure the regulars will probably be more skilled, but that comes with playing all the time. i dont have a problem with splitting up the skill levels. but if you;re going to force one group of friends to split up for whatever reasons, you should split the others too. knowing your teammates is an advantage as well....
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
It sounds like it's an ongoing problem a the OP's field. Also, if you watch the video, this is the second game after in the first game the non-stacked team was stomped.

I'm all for being the underdog. I will ALWAYS choose the weaker of two teams to join because I find that more challenging and rewarding. But renters who come so rarely, maybe even their first time, don't want to be the underdogs. They want things to be relatively fair and even. For the most part they would probably prefer if the gear owners weren't there at all since chances are that they will have to go head to head with some of them at some point. But since that's not always possible (to separate the gear owners) the renters will at least find some consolation knowing they also have some gear owners on their team making things relativity even. I personally don't care if I lose every game all day long. But renters need to win at least some of the time, otherwise they will go home feeling defeated and useless and chances are they won't be back.
Agree.

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Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
Renters don't care about competition, they want to have fun, and getting stomped by the speedball crowd isn't fun. Terrible business to give a minority what they want at the expense of the majority of players. They had their fun, time to even it up. Don't like it, don't play.

With that many players, there really should have been two groups, or they should have opened the speedball field for the guys that wanted it. Splitting up the new players and the experienced players is really the best solution, in general.
Somewhat agree. I have a ton of first timers come out to my field who are competitive and want to win. And it's not just the speedball crowd that stomps people. He's talking about regulars in general who go try hard. Splitting up into two groups isn't always possible for some fields.

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Originally Posted by Subterfuge View Post
I agree, that they have to play against each other several times before they step up to experienced players. I tried to get my friend to play easier players on his first game, but then we were forced to play players with their own gear the second game. That was when he surprised me with the realization that my training was indeed going through his head. By the time he was on the field he already knew how to aim and how to protect himself. He was shot out in the beginning of the first game, but we walked through what he did wrong and he corrected himself.

The third game, the refs stacked the other team against us 9 vs 5. They thought we were both ringers. We lost that game, but we didn't back down from the challenge.
As a ref, I try to get new comers to play at least a few games themselves before playing a larger group with regulars. They seem timid at the idea at first but once they actually play they love it more than playing with themselves. It all depends on how the regulars play in those games. There are rentals who can take it too far too.

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Originally Posted by 2nwyka View Post
I've skimmed the responses enough to know that we haven't changed topics yet, so...
One day at my local field it was me, my buddy, and six rentals against the field owner, four tournament players, and an experienced rental. We were briefed by the refs to be running straight semi and just hopperball. No ropes of paint at 12.5bps. Well, we start out and immediately three of my rentals fall to--you guessed it--a rope of paint. But not only was it a rope of paint, but it was also ramping and from the FIELD OWNER!!! I had a pump gun and I got locked down real good by two of them, so I was snapping the best I could but didn't have the firepower I needed to suppress both of them at time, and so they steadily worked their way up the field. They didn't lose a single team member while we were systematically destroyed. I was severely bonus balled, again by the field owner, and the rentals all were hesitant to play the rest of the day.

That was when that field started really to go downhill for me. This Saturday is going to be its final trial. If it can become fun again and stuff like this can stop happening, I'll go back. If not, my business is going elsewhere.
Noah
Now that's the issue that is pertinent to fields. Nothing wrong with regulars against newcomers, but when the regulars break the rules of the game, and shoot way more than they should be, that's a problem, especially if the refs don't do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlmiller View Post
Rental groups aren't the problem not wanting to split up. It's when you go to the field and there's the 4/5/6/7 guys that play together regularly, are all experienced players and are obviously a far higher level than most of the rest, and they want to stick together. Yeah, it's fun for them, but it's no fun to be on the opposite team and know that you're basically just going out there to be cannon fodder. My old field actually had a rule that said anyone who played tournies at the field was not permitted to be teamed up with their tournament teammates in rec play (obviously if there were 4 of them, then both teams would get 2 since there's no way to keep anyone from being together with a teammate). Was one of the best fields ever. You'd almost NEVER have one team stomp another. And because of it, the field would be PACKED every weekend, because people who went there to play had a LOT of fun.
If they can take it easy, then it shouldn't be a problem with them sticking together. But some games at least they should be split up I agree.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:37 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
With that many players, there really should have been two groups, or they should have opened the speedball field for the guys that wanted it. Splitting up the new players and the experienced players is really the best solution, in general.
I agree that there should be a split based on experience, but if only 8 experienced players show up and 40 renters come the same day. What can you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidfiretibby View Post
i hate how because a group of people play every weekend, you think they have no right to play on the same team. regulars have just as much right to play with each other as do the kids who are there for the first time and the kids who play 3 times a year. sure the regulars will probably be more skilled, but that comes with playing all the time. i dont have a problem with splitting up the skill levels. but if you;re going to force one group of friends to split up for whatever reasons, you should split the others too. knowing your teammates is an advantage as well....
I also agree here as well. I have tons of electros and i bring tons of first timers out to play with my stuff and we have to get split up because of the demographic of players that day. I think there has to be a balance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Subterfuge View Post
I think my problem is more centered toward the video. The dude is talking about how the teams are not fair instead of encouraging his team to destroy the unathletic tourney wannabes. He had players on his team, that were misguided,(basic combat boots are terrible on the feet) but they had the paint necessary to support a frontman and they may have been faster than the other team if they didn't choose such crappy footwear. I've eliminated stackers with my team having no paint to help me. In fact, my team didn't even know what I was going to do. He is talking about an experienced player dealing with other experienced players, stacking against his team. I have been the only experienced player on my team so many times, I can't even count.

My biggest problem is when another somewhat experienced player admits defeat before the game even starts. I usually tell them to shut up, the other team is a bunch of weak losers and tell them to not be intimidated so easily. Let the adrenaline flow. The other team isn't going to know what hit them. My team, if they are completely naive, usually take out players that are supposed to be better than them. They may have only played one or two times, but they bunker someone that has been playing for 6 months to a year. Heck, I trained one Haitian friend to bunker four players in his second game winning it on his own. They all had their own gear; he and I had rentals. Of course I trained my friend 30 minutes before we started a game though.
I also agree here as well. There are times where it is only me and a bunch of renters on the same team. I gather as many as i can and lead them. Not backing down from the challenge of a bunch of electro/experienced players. I have won tons of games because I would have 10 rentals helping me clear a side fo the field using alot of teamwork or Lets be Honest "using them as bait" lol. and they all have a great time regardless of if we lose or not.

I play with a pump so Diomedes im right there with you.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:06 PM #28
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Wait.... so you went to Cousins SI and was expecting this not to happen? That is the worst field in NYC. Overpriced, terrible refs, ****ty fields, all around terrible. If you have played there before than you should've known what to expect. I have played there many times and it's always quite the experience. People shooting extremely hot because no one is chronoed, people screaming at each other like animals, fights, refs not doing their jobs, etc.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:31 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Danny96211 View Post
Wait.... so you went to Cousins SI and was expecting this not to happen? That is the worst field in NYC. Overpriced, terrible refs, ****ty fields, all around terrible. If you have played there before than you should've known what to expect. I have played there many times and it's always quite the experience. People shooting extremely hot because no one is chronoed, people screaming at each other like animals, fights, refs not doing their jobs, etc.
+1
there's a reason why it's been +5 years since the last and only time I went. Horrible refs and no one on top of chrono. Might as well have shot hot and wiped all day. There was no punishment for rule breaking.

All the people I've met that come from SI have said the field 30minutes away in nj are far superior.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:33 PM #30
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At my local field, the ref's there are pretty good about splitting up the regulars/experience players with the rentals. And if the experience players want to go, they give the rentals mre of an advantage and more players, but any arguing and they get benched for the game or kicked out if they keep it up.
Normally the regulars I play with are fair and we hang out in the back and let the rentals do their thing, though we usually gun for each other. and usually if one of us gets out early, to make it fair the other gets out and we help ref from the other side of the field. Trying to help encourage more people to come out and expand the sport. Without new people, the sport would die out eventually.

But I have been to fields that are the opposite and refs purposefully keep the regulars together because one is a ref or buddies with them and lets them get away with it. Nothing like a well aimed shot at a lousy ref to make him actually care..
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Old 11-24-2013, 02:44 PM #31
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Thinking myself good refs= good field
Even odds= more fun for everyone
I'm pretty fortunate the closest public field near me has certified tourney quality refs,good mix of walkons and self equpt players,it would explain why they've been in business for 25+ years
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Old 11-25-2013, 07:58 AM #32
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This happens all the time. A lot of fields don't get enough to run seperate groups. I understand that. I usually call the refs out if they do it repeatedly. What has always worked for me though. Is if you see a potential issue. Just say something early. Don't call them out, just go up to a ref and say "You might have to split up some of the regulars to even it out if this game is one sided". Just between you and a ref, no one else has to hear. Then you play the match and if the regs do stomp on the beginners then the refs will switch. And if they don't, then they can't act like its not their fault when you call them out later infront of everyone. Sometimes the beginners hold their own though so I like to let it play first and see how it goes.
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:46 AM #33
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Originally Posted by MikeBlahBlah View Post
This happens all the time. A lot of fields don't get enough to run seperate groups. I understand that. I usually call the refs out if they do it repeatedly. What has always worked for me though. Is if you see a potential issue. Just say something early. Don't call them out, just go up to a ref and say "You might have to split up some of the regulars to even it out if this game is one sided". Just between you and a ref, no one else has to hear. Then you play the match and if the regs do stomp on the beginners then the refs will switch. And if they don't, then they can't act like its not their fault when you call them out later infront of everyone. Sometimes the beginners hold their own though so I like to let it play first and see how it goes.
+1
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:35 PM #34
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Originally Posted by MikeBlahBlah View Post
This happens all the time. A lot of fields don't get enough to run seperate groups. I understand that. I usually call the refs out if they do it repeatedly. What has always worked for me though. Is if you see a potential issue. Just say something early. Don't call them out, just go up to a ref and say "You might have to split up some of the regulars to even it out if this game is one sided". Just between you and a ref, no one else has to hear. Then you play the match and if the regs do stomp on the beginners then the refs will switch. And if they don't, then they can't act like its not their fault when you call them out later infront of everyone. Sometimes the beginners hold their own though so I like to let it play first and see how it goes.
This
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:16 PM #35
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As a player, and a referee, I can sympathize with both sides, however,
There are some people who will complain, regardless of who you put them with, if their team loses. When I play recball, I honestly don't care who's on what teams, but some people aren't the same.
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:25 PM #36
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The field I play on normally does a really good job of dividing the owners/experienced and renters. Most of the refs do their best to keep everyone's groups together but sometimes that doesn't work out as me and a few of the guys I like to run with have been split up. Some refs are better than others and some play favorites with their buddies at which time I will just walk off the field.

I’m one that fits in the middle I guess as I own my own gear (I wear all woodland camo with combat boots but have a etek4) but I’ve only played 5 times so I’m not really that much better than most of the renters. I like running with the guys that play just for the fun of it no matter what gear they are using or if they are any good or not. Most of the time I couldn’t tell you if my side won or lost and don’t really care as long as I had fun. The last time I went out I got shot out 4 times in a row right at the beginning 3 in the foot and 1 in the tip of my pinky but still had a great time laughing about it with some of the guys.

Now I know they can’t but I wish they could split off the guys that want to play like its PSP finals from the renters and rec players. When these guys are stack up on me I will either say something to the ref or walk off because at that point I know it’s not going to be any fun. The field has a no bunker rule (with in 20feet its surrender) which they like to ignore and also like to ramp (also against the rules) so they can get as much paint on you as possible (I guess it makes them feel better about themselves). Its these guys I would like separated into their own group more than experienced or owners. Sorry, I think this maybe a different subject but I’m completely with the OP as it should be fair and fun for everyone.
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:36 PM #37
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I am an experienced player... If I go to a field with a group of friends, I don't ever expect to be split up. I make it known to the refs that if we play with new players, I am going to make sure they have fun (whether they win or not).

Most refs at the fields I play at know how I am and assume whoever I take with me is the same...

Split my group up and it puts a bad taste in my mouth... I'll ruin peoples days over it... Call me immature, call me a baby, whatever... I should have the same right as any other group to play with my friends on my team... whether we are experienced or not shouldn't matter... Give them a **** load more people... ask us to use less paint, ask us to shoot slower or one ball it... hell, ask us to play with no pods... But don't split us up.
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:57 PM #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelyDeezNutz View Post
Split my group up and it puts a bad taste in my mouth... I'll ruin peoples days over it... Call me immature, call me a baby, whatever... I should have the same right as any other group to play with my friends on my team... whether we are experienced or not shouldn't matter... Give them a **** load more people... ask us to use less paint, ask us to shoot slower or one ball it... hell, ask us to play with no pods... But don't split us up.
Problem is, I've never seen a ref do ANY of that to ensure a fair game.
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Old 11-25-2013, 04:02 PM #39
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*note* Why are people talking about bonus balling and other un-sportsmanlike activity? That has nothing to do with unbalanced teams, not all speedball players overshoot, and some rentals/beginners do overshoot. Don't confuse these issues, they are unrelated. Overshooting is done by a-holes, independent of where they fall in on teams.

At my local field I've never seen it be that ridiculously lopsided for more than 1 game at a time, like the refs might favor a regular or friend as far as clumping up talent one game, and if they stomp the other team too hard they will divide things up more evenly the next game. Usually rentals want to claim the people with their own gear. They typically rotate how teams are chosen, so one game the ref divides things up, then the next game they pick two experienced players to be team captains so they're forced to be split up, then the next game they'll have two rentals be captains and they obviously take turns picking the people with the coolest looking gear, then pick their other rental friends they want on their team.

I see a lot of insane rentals too, that charge out right into battle, dive into snake off of break, and make crazy plays. They don't care who they are against, they just want to play, and win or loose they're having fun. Not every rental is a hapless 10 year old with glasses, standing out in the open, shaking, and holding his marker at their side.

It kind of requires playing by ear. If you have a rental group that is really timid a lot of times they actually ask for people to take it easy on them and typically everyone complies.
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:05 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelyDeezNutz View Post
I am an experienced player... If I go to a field with a group of friends, I don't ever expect to be split up.
Then you should be organizing a private group, NOT going to open play.

Quote:
I make it known to the refs that if we play with new players, I am going to make sure they have fun (whether they win or not).
You said you don't play "with" new players, you only play "against" them. That's the issue.

Quote:
Split my group up and it puts a bad taste in my mouth... I'll ruin peoples days over it... Call me immature, call me a baby, whatever...
You're not immature or a baby, just acting like a noob. Inexperienced, and a bit selfish. Real experienced players know that shooting AT friends is a hell of a lot more fun than only shooting along side of them. And a non-selfish player knows that often you have to receive a bit less of what you want in order for the entire group to get more.

Quote:
I should have the same right as any other group to play with my friends on my team...
You do, as a private group or game. NOT open play. In open play there are no teams, just individual players who happened to show up at the same time.

Quote:
whether we are experienced or not shouldn't matter...
It doesn't matter. When I reffed I'd spend as much time explaining to new players that it's better to split up groups.

Quote:
Give them a **** load more people... ask us to use less paint, ask us to shoot slower or one ball it... hell, ask us to play with no pods... But don't split us up.
Because all the new players LOVE getting reminded how much they suck, right?
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:35 PM #41
Danny96211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelyDeezNutz View Post
I am an experienced player... If I go to a field with a group of friends, I don't ever expect to be split up. I make it known to the refs that if we play with new players, I am going to make sure they have fun (whether they win or not).

Most refs at the fields I play at know how I am and assume whoever I take with me is the same...

Split my group up and it puts a bad taste in my mouth... I'll ruin peoples days over it... Call me immature, call me a baby, whatever... I should have the same right as any other group to play with my friends on my team... whether we are experienced or not shouldn't matter... Give them a **** load more people... ask us to use less paint, ask us to shoot slower or one ball it... hell, ask us to play with no pods... But don't split us up.
Agreed. If I show up to the field with 5 or 6 friends, I don't expect to be split up and shouldn't be split up. I play walk-on ball to have a good time with my friends. I like to play along side them. I'm paying just as much as the next guy for paint and admission, so I should be able to have fun too. It's not my fault if there are other people who are inexperienced. It seems as though everyone nurtures the newbies. If you are new, you probably shouldn't be spending your first game with a bunch of walk-ons. Depending on the type of people/field you are at, it can leave a really bad taste in your mouth. Everyone is so focused about making sure the new players have a good time and aren't overshot or bunkered or even looked at the wrong way. Well, paintball is a ruff sport. These things will happen! You will get shot. You will lose some and you will win some as well. It's just the way things work. Am I saying that we should all go out and shoot the **** out the newbies as if it were world cup? No! All I'm saying is that we should not worry so much about these things. Instead, we should all just be having fun playing the sport we love!

Last edited by Danny96211 : 11-25-2013 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 06:15 PM #42
Robotech
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny96211 View Post
Agreed. If I show up to the field with 5 or 6 friends, I don't expect to be split up and shouldn't be split up. I play walk-on ball to have a good time with my friends. I like to play along side them. I'm paying just as much as the next guy for paint and admission, so I should be able to have fun too. It's not my fault if there are other people who are inexperienced. It seems as though everyone nurtures the newbies. If you are new, you probably shouldn't be spending your first game with a bunch of walk-ons. Depending on the type of people/field you are at, it can leave a really bad taste in your mouth. Everyone is so focused about making sure the new players have a good time and aren't overshot or bunkered or even looked at the wrong way. Well, paintball is a ruff sport. These things will happen! You will get shot. You will lose some and you will win some as well. It's just the way things work. Am I saying that we should all go out and shoot the **** out the newbies as if it were world cup? No! All I'm saying is that we should not worry so much about these things. Instead, we should all just be having fun playing the sport we love!
So if you go to a field and there are a total of 40 players there, 34 are new/rental players and the other six are you and you're friends, you'd have no problem playing in an "experianced" class while the renters played in their class. After all, they should be able to have fun too and in the original scenario, the side that had the 6 experianced players was handing the other side it's butt and, having been in that situation, that's no fun to me. So by your own logic, the park should be able to move experianced players out of "rental" walk on sessions to keep things fun for all...

...which means your six friends would either have to split up onto different teams or go "hunting trees" together.

There is good reason to care about making sure new players have a fun first experiance at a walk on event at a professional paintball facility. Not understanding the importance of this is a very near-sighted point of view.

Numbers mean everything in this sport. The more players you have enjoying the game, the lower the price of paint ($120 for a case of paint in the early 90s compared to $40 today). The more players are getting into the sport and buying equippment, the cheaper that equippment can become (Smart Parts Ion). The more regular players there are, the more likely your local field or store will stay in business giving you a place to play and purchase gear locally.

Without those numbers, companies go out of business, parks close doors, events become less spectacular, prices increase.

If you have ever tried something for the first time...whether it be food, a sport, a movie, whatever...how many times have you gone back to try it again if you didn't like it the first time? Of those times you did go back and try it again, how many of those times did you enjoy whatever it was because the experiance was more enjoyable?

That is what this point is all about. Yes, paintball is a rough sport, yes paintballs hurt, yes, some people won't like it...but MORE people will like it if their first experiance, or even first few experiances, are pleasant ones and not ones where they feel they are constantly getting beat and getting shot out of every game in the first 2 minutes.

If you're going to play walk-on, and the majority of the players are newer or less experianced players, you're only helping yourself by helping them. I have a group of friends that all go play together and when we do, we are 10-20 strong. We split ourselves up for walk on games and then do a private game just between us. If there are enough experianced players, we'll all play on one side if we can. Key is, we're flexible and we can have just as much fun playing against ourselves as we can all together. Our priority is to make sure everyone in the game is having fun...supporting the new players, watching our ROF, etc...and in turn we make even more friends and bring more players into the sport who might otherwise never have picked it up beyond a couple games here and there.

If we don't keep working on growing the sport, eventually the sport will die. You may not think that the case, but go see if you can find someone who use to race slot cars and ask them how big that used to be and if they ever thought their sport would dry up into nothing.

Last edited by Robotech : 11-25-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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