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Old 11-20-2013, 01:06 PM #1
Diomedes
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Dealing with the "Favoring the Regulars" Problem

We've all been there. Big group of walk-ons, mostly new, lot of renters, handful of regulars. They might be off-duty refs, or members of the "home" team, or just a group who's there every other weekend.

Refs are making teams, trying to keep the numbers even, and like clockwork, the regulars insist that they stay together. Even though they're the only group of experienced players in the game.

And the ever-responsible refs, of course...let them do it, with predictable results.

I have no patience for this. Absolutely none. So when this was going on last weekend, I called the refs on it:



What do YOU think? What would you have done? Have to deal with this regularly? What do you do?
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:38 PM #2
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I agree with you, but not an issue on my field, game rarely go over 10v10 80% being first time rentals so we the regulars get split in half and are restricted to semi only 13bps cap.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:45 PM #3
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There is a lot that factors into team-choosing. Depends on what group you're reffing, etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with regulars wanting to play against rentals, as long as the regulars follow the rules of the game. But the teams shouldn't be like this every game. As a recball referee myself, when deciding teams, I have two captains pick teams. That way if one side gets crushed, they can only blame the captains. Typically, we will do with those teams at least 2 games (switch sides after first game). Now if there is a game where a few regulars want to play against the rentals, the players as a whole take a majority vote on whether or not they want to do that. If the majority says yes, we play that game, but again, these aren't the teams all day. In essence, the teams all day should be different. As a referee myself, I will play some games now and then with first time players, and I don't care who I play for, whether with other regulars, or first timers. As long as you're following the rules, why should teams really matter that much? It's paintball, you're going to get shot either way.
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:58 PM #4
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Good for you to speak up,my pet peeve too
I had this occurring at our private field,home team against visitors,it drove me nuts!We ended up splitting teams more evenly after I complained enough
There's no point in a lopsided team,no one has fun
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:02 PM #5
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HUGE issue at most of my local fields. It bothers me too. We've said something a few times, but it doesn't help at our fields. If not for the fact that it happens at both the fields I frequent, I'd go somewhere else, but not really an option.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:47 PM #6
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The field I usually play on is pretty fair, but it's in spite of heavy lobbying by some of the regulars. No renter wants to get stitched up by some tournament player trying to pump up his ego, and fields need to protect them within reason. What bothers me more is the general disrespect that some of the regulars have for the refs. I'm all for having fun, but not at the expense of safety nor the disrespect of the single ref trying to manage a group of adult children.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:11 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floods View Post
The field I usually play on is pretty fair, but it's in spite of heavy lobbying by some of the regulars. No renter wants to get stitched up by some tournament player trying to pump up his ego, and fields need to protect them within reason. What bothers me more is the general disrespect that some of the regulars have for the refs. I'm all for having fun, but not at the expense of safety nor the disrespect of the single ref trying to manage a group of adult children.
One time, one of our refs got backtalked by a regular for not making teams the way he wanted it. The regular said he was going to complain to the manager, and that the manager valued the regular's money more than the manager valued the ref. Our ref showed him the list of rules, saying ref's decisions are final. He shut up after that. And to be clear, being a regular does not mean you are a tournament player. You can rock a tippmann and be a regular at a field, someone who attends every week, and not necessarily even good at the sport. The problem I have is with the regulars who bonus ball almost on purpose it seems, and have an attitude at times.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:12 PM #8
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I always call the refs out on the same issue as well. Im one of those "regulars/experienced" you are talking about.

When I play at the local fields I only use my pump, and I always line up against self equipped players. And I always team up with new players to increased the quality of their expereince at the field. There are times were the refs are not paying attention, and there is no problem with pointing things out to the refs in a respectful way.

So if you have a problem go up to them personally, get to know them/introduce yourselves, and talk with them or to the owners. So when issues come up you dont have to yell at them from 40ft away with a condesending tone. And if you have an issue bring it up to them after the game, dont let it fester in your gut for hours before you say something.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:29 PM #9
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i hate how because a group of people play every weekend, you think they have no right to play on the same team. regulars have just as much right to play with each other as do the kids who are there for the first time and the kids who play 3 times a year. sure the regulars will probably be more skilled, but that comes with playing all the time. i dont have a problem with splitting up the skill levels. but if you;re going to force one group of friends to split up for whatever reasons, you should split the others too. knowing your teammates is an advantage as well....
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:58 PM #10
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At my field we split up the groups. There's beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Beginners are pretty much all rentals who have no skills(new). Intermediate are people who have their own equipment that know what they're doing. And advanced are players who really know how to play.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:20 PM #11
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You don't have to handle favoritism, if you kick their ***** either way. I am one of those players that hate it when the odds are in my favor; because, it's less of a victory, and there is less talking about the moves that were done to destroy the stackers. You can become an instant legend if you pull off a win against favored "tournament" players. I don't expect to win sometimes, but I continue to play my best and sometimes pull it off by taking huge risks. The bigger the risk that wins the game, the bigger your reputation becomes. If you fail, you just fall back into obscurity and what's wrong with that? You don't want to become a target until you prove yourself in a huge way. The reputation is improved not just from the experienced players you took down, it's the newer players that are on your team that talk about you forever.

You have a problem with favoritism, because you fear. I only see it as an opportunity, because it makes the game more intense. My biggest problems usually lie in wipers, cheaters, and manipulators who are trying as hard as they can to fake a good reputation.

You have to realize, when someone is afraid on your team, and they see someone that is not just fighting, but fighting extremely well and skilled. They get this resolve to help you at all costs. They don't want their best player eliminated. If they see you are facing their fears head on, they will want to keep you alive. They will start becoming as aggressive as you are. I've had newbies with rental markers, bunker people ahead of me. But it was only after they saw me bunker some dude with a super marker, like the marker didn't mean anything. If the other team is expecting to win, they aren't going to expect to be bunkered early in the game, like say the first 30 seconds. The stacked team doesn't expect to be snapshot accurately in the face or have their bunker compromised either.

I tried to pick a fair team another day as captain, but these guys jumped off my team and stacked themselves against us with ramping electric markers and several pods on their backs. (I was using a hopper) I said, "Fine, you go ahead with that. I don't think you know what's coming." That was the day when my team over-celebrated their win as I walked off the field quietly. The team that we defeated did not want to play us again. They were humiliated. Before they were talking trash and ramping on the rentals. Once we won, they lost all respect from the rentals and were being bunkered like they were not even players to contend with anymore.

I've seen those players in your video. They have all this awesome gear, but they are playing woodsball in tournament jerseys and most of them are not very athletic. Nothing to worry about dude. You are intimidated way too easy.

Last edited by Subterfuge : 11-20-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:38 PM #12
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Originally Posted by robotboy View Post
At my field we split up the groups. There's beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Beginners are pretty much all rentals who have no skills(new). Intermediate are people who have their own equipment that know what they're doing. And advanced are players who really know how to play.
That's great if you have enough players, but most fields don't have enough to do that. My insurance company specifies that I have to have a minimum of 2 refs for each group. That's 6 refs in your scenario, plus a ref at the door plus one or two in the staging area to handle signups, rentals handouts and returns, orientations and the like. That's at least 8 or 9 staff (more if we have a private group or two on top of that. But even at only 8 or 9 refs that's over $1,000 in payroll expense already. You need quite a good sized crowd to pay for that much staffing.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:42 PM #13
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Originally Posted by Subterfuge View Post
You don't have to handle favoritism, if you kick their ***** either way. I am one of those players that hate it when the odds are in my favor; because, it's less of a victory, and there is less talking about the moves that were done to destroy the stackers. You can become an instant legend if you pull off a win against favored "tournament" players. I don't expect to win sometimes, but I continue to play my best and sometimes pull it off by taking huge risks. The bigger the risk that wins the game, the bigger your reputation becomes. If you fail, you just fall back into obscurity and what's wrong with that? You don't want to become a target until you prove yourself in a huge way. The reputation is improved not just from the experienced players you took down, it's the newer players that are on your team that talk about you forever.

You have a problem with favoritism, because you fear. I only see it as an opportunity, because it makes the game more intense. My biggest problems usually lie in wipers, cheaters, and manipulators who are trying as hard as they can to fake a good reputation.

You have to realize, when someone is afraid on your team, and they see someone that is not just fighting, but fighting extremely well and skilled. They get this resolve to help you at all costs. They don't want their best player eliminated. If they see you are facing their fears head on, they will want to keep you alive. They will start becoming as aggressive as you are. I've had newbies with rental markers, bunker people ahead of me. But it was only after they saw me bunker some dude with a super marker, like the marker didn't mean anything. If the other team is expecting to win, they aren't going to expect to be bunkered early in the game, like say the first 30 seconds. The stacked team doesn't expect to be snapshot accurately in the face or have their bunker compromised either.

I tried to pick a fair team another day as captain, but these guys jumped off my team and stacked themselves against us with ramping electric markers and several pods on their backs. (I was using a hopper) I said, "Fine, you go ahead with that. I don't think you know what's coming." That was the day when my team over-celebrated their win as I walked off the field quietly. The team that we defeated did not want to play us again. They were humiliated. Before they were talking trash and ramping on the rentals. Once we won, they lost all respect from the rentals and were being bunkered like they were not even players to contend with anymore.

I've seen those players in your video. They have all this awesome gear, but they are playing woodsball in tournament jerseys and most of them are not very athletic. Nothing to worry about dude. You are intimidated way too easy.
That's fine for you, but not fine for renters. Renters come once a year more or less and they want things fair. They don't want to lose every game. If they lose every game, they aren't going to come back. And it will be only the very odd one that will come out of it at the end of the day with a great story about how he shot out the regular that was shooting like crazy at him. Most others will just be talking about how they got eliminated real quick every game because the other team was stacked and had all the "pros".
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:58 PM #14
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Good for you. I'd call them out too.

However if a ref won't budge on teams, shoot the refs during the game. Apologize afterward, but there has to be a punishment if your a douche ref.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:01 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subterfuge View Post
You have a problem with favoritism, because you fear...You are intimidated way too easy.
Yup, I'm afraid of the pros. That's why I was playing with a stick feed pistol. It's why never use anything but a stick feed. I'm afraid to play against people with big scary e-guns.

This wasn't for my benefit, it's for the renters that would get a beat down. The ones who complained to other players and the refs after the previous game.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:15 PM #16
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I think my problem is more centered toward the video. The dude is talking about how the teams are not fair instead of encouraging his team to destroy the unathletic tourney wannabes. He had players on his team, that were misguided,(basic combat boots are terrible on the feet) but they had the paint necessary to support a frontman and they may have been faster than the other team if they didn't choose such crappy footwear. I've eliminated stackers with my team having no paint to help me. In fact, my team didn't even know what I was going to do. He is talking about an experienced player dealing with other experienced players, stacking against his team. I have been the only experienced player on my team so many times, I can't even count.

My biggest problem is when another somewhat experienced player admits defeat before the game even starts. I usually tell them to shut up, the other team is a bunch of weak losers and tell them to not be intimidated so easily. Let the adrenaline flow. The other team isn't going to know what hit them. My team, if they are completely naive, usually take out players that are supposed to be better than them. They may have only played one or two times, but they bunker someone that has been playing for 6 months to a year. Heck, I trained one Haitian friend to bunker four players in his second game winning it on his own. They all had their own gear; he and I had rentals. Of course I trained my friend 30 minutes before we started a game though.

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Old 11-20-2013, 07:29 PM #17
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I think my problem is more centered toward the video. The dude is talking about how the teams are not fair instead of encouraging his team to destroy the unathletic tourney wannabes. He had players on his team, that were misguided,(basic combat boots are terrible on the feet) but they had the paint necessary to support a frontman and they may have been faster than the other team if they didn't choose such crappy footwear. I've eliminated stackers with my team having no paint to help me. In fact, my team didn't even know what I was going to do. He is talking about an experienced player dealing with other experienced players, stacking against his team. I have been the only experienced player on my team so many times, I can't even count.
It sounds like it's an ongoing problem a the OP's field. Also, if you watch the video, this is the second game after in the first game the non-stacked team was stomped.

I'm all for being the underdog. I will ALWAYS choose the weaker of two teams to join because I find that more challenging and rewarding. But renters who come so rarely, maybe even their first time, don't want to be the underdogs. They want things to be relatively fair and even. For the most part they would probably prefer if the gear owners weren't there at all since chances are that they will have to go head to head with some of them at some point. But since that's not always possible (to separate the gear owners) the renters will at least find some consolation knowing they also have some gear owners on their team making things relativity even. I personally don't care if I lose every game all day long. But renters need to win at least some of the time, otherwise they will go home feeling defeated and useless and chances are they won't be back.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:35 PM #18
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Renters don't care about competition, they want to have fun, and getting stomped by the speedball crowd isn't fun. Terrible business to give a minority what they want at the expense of the majority of players. They had their fun, time to even it up. Don't like it, don't play.

With that many players, there really should have been two groups, or they should have opened the speedball field for the guys that wanted it. Splitting up the new players and the experienced players is really the best solution, in general.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:43 PM #19
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I agree, that they have to play against each other several times before they step up to experienced players. I tried to get my friend to play easier players on his first game, but then we were forced to play players with their own gear the second game. That was when he surprised me with the realization that my training was indeed going through his head. By the time he was on the field he already knew how to aim and how to protect himself. He was shot out in the beginning of the first game, but we walked through what he did wrong and he corrected himself.

The third game, the refs stacked the other team against us 9 vs 5. They thought we were both ringers. We lost that game, but we didn't back down from the challenge.

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Old 11-20-2013, 08:44 PM #20
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At my local field pretty much all the regulars know each other we just hang out in certain "clicks" me and my group of friends are always on the same team while other groups of regulars are on another all local refs always make it fair though and make it fun if the other teams loses a man I usually sit out I'm also the guy on the field giving the news guys advice you know tips on guns what's position they need to take etc. We're all supportive of the new guys you know without fresh players the sport would die
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:11 PM #21
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I've skimmed the responses enough to know that we haven't changed topics yet, so...
One day at my local field it was me, my buddy, and six rentals against the field owner, four tournament players, and an experienced rental. We were briefed by the refs to be running straight semi and just hopperball. No ropes of paint at 12.5bps. Well, we start out and immediately three of my rentals fall to--you guessed it--a rope of paint. But not only was it a rope of paint, but it was also ramping and from the FIELD OWNER!!! I had a pump gun and I got locked down real good by two of them, so I was snapping the best I could but didn't have the firepower I needed to suppress both of them at time, and so they steadily worked their way up the field. They didn't lose a single team member while we were systematically destroyed. I was severely bonus balled, again by the field owner, and the rentals all were hesitant to play the rest of the day.

That was when that field started really to go downhill for me. This Saturday is going to be its final trial. If it can become fun again and stuff like this can stop happening, I'll go back. If not, my business is going elsewhere.
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