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Old 12-08-2013, 04:45 AM #22
RepN the 417
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I don't care what happened. It's a business, not a house. Do what is best for the sport and players.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:58 AM #23
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Yep its due time to get over your egos write up a contract and move on with life.. leave the past in the past its not about who tried to do what and didnt succeed, its about the players you know the ones that support this industry. Appa dont forget without the players you have no business just a empty website. I hope to see appa change there mind as I know I will be playing the APL regardless if appa is involved ot not!! The only thing in life that stays the same is change.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:41 PM #24
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Originally Posted by RepN the 417 View Post
I don't care what happened. It's a business, not a house. Do what is best for the sport and players.
There's holding a grudge and there's refusing to work with somebody that deliberately tried to steal what you've built. Anyone that knows Chris knows how hard he works and what he's put in to create the APPA for the benefit of the players.
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Yep its due time to get over your egos write up a contract and move on with life.. leave the past in the past its not about who tried to do what and didnt succeed, its about the players you know the ones that support this industry. Appa dont forget without the players you have no business just a empty website. I hope to see appa change there mind as I know I will be playing the APL regardless if appa is involved ot not!! The only thing in life that stays the same is change.
Do you even understand what you're reading? This isn't about pride or ego. Chris said yes the first time around and caught them trying to steal his entire system.

Your friend stabbed you in the back. Get over your ego and hand him a bigger knife.
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:32 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RepN the 417 View Post
I don't care what happened. It's a business, not a house. Do what is best for the sport and players.
That statement is confusing. Is it more important to run a good business or do what is best for the sport?

Running a good business is protecting what you have invested in and keeping people from trying to copy off your hard work. If you wanted to do what's best for the sport and players you would let people copy the system, but you wouldn't be a very successful businessman.

Personally, I don't see why anyone should spend all their time and money to create something only to give it away for free, especially in paintball.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:53 PM #26
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That statement is confusing. Is it more important to run a good business or do what is best for the sport?

Running a good business is protecting what you have invested in and keeping people from trying to copy off your hard work. If you wanted to do what's best for the sport and players you would let people copy the system, but you wouldn't be a very successful businessman.

Personally, I don't see why anyone should spend all their time and money to create something only to give it away for free, especially in paintball.
That problem could be solved by a simple binding contract clause that would prevent anything like that from happening again. APPA wins, APL wins, and more importantly, THE PLAYERS WIN.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:45 AM #27
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That problem could be solved by a simple binding contract clause that would prevent anything like that from happening again.
I don't think you understand what a contract is or how they work. Contracts don't prevent anything. At best they allow you to spend a lot of time and money on lawyers to attempt to force the other party to honor the contract.

By the time that happens the damage has usually already been done.

And even that is virtually impossible to do when, say, the entity you have a contract with has filed for bankruptcy.

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:01 AM #28
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That problem could be solved by a simple binding contract clause that would prevent anything like that from happening again. APPA wins, APL wins, and more importantly, THE PLAYERS WIN.
Contracts aren't worth anything unless you have the time and money to enforce them with legal action. Why bother risking tens of thousands of dollars in legal expenses and months, if not years of delays, when you could simply pass on the deal? The APPA doesn't need the APL.

If you want to argue that a partnership is best for the players, let's be honest - the NPPL couldn't even attract enough teams to run main divisions at every event last season and now you have the APL competing for a piece of an already small slice of the pie. You see a new league and I see hasty competition in an already saturated market that needs consolidation to survive.

Am I the only one that recognizes this pattern? League (NPPL) runs, things go bad, league (NPPL) dies, teams get screwed, new league is formed with similar leadership, new league becomes new NPPL, cycle repeats. While I applaud Shawn for offering to honor the entry vouchers from recent NPPL events, I still have a hard time believing these cash prizes will be honored in the new league. To put this into a more constructive context and give Shawn a chance to share his perspective with us, what will be done differently this time around to stabilize the new league and avoid the crippling damage suffered by the NPPL this past season? More specifically:

1. How will cash prizes be guaranteed?
2. How will divisions fill up with enough teams to run properly?
3. How will the integrity of the pro division be preserved?
4. How will this league be developed in a way that helps the industry rather than trying to shave off a few teams from the PSP for bare survival? The divisional structure and 5-man format make it pretty obvious whose market you're trying to reach into.
5. What can you tell us about the APPA knockoff attempt?
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:27 PM #29
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Personally, I don't see why anyone should spend all their time and money to create something only to give it away for free, especially in paintball.
Tell that to players when it comes to photographs
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:01 PM #30
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I don't think you understand what a contract is or how they work. Contracts don't prevent anything. At best they allow you to spend a lot of time and money on lawyers to attempt to force the other party to honor the contract.

By the time that happens the damage has usually already been done.

And even that is virtually impossible to do when, say, the entity you have a contract with has filed for bankruptcy.

- Chris
Uh, thank you, but I understand exactly how they work. You are correct, they do not prevent anything, but they provide insurance if something is done. If you have two parties that consent to a specific clause or contract, on a written document, it is legally binding by both parties. So would it prevent Shawn from doing this? No. Would he suffer legal consequences this time if he did? Absolutely. You don't do this because it could potentially cost you time in the future, you do it for the players. I understand your view point, there is just ways around it that would benefit the players, and they are never considered.

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Contracts aren't worth anything unless you have the time and money to enforce them with legal action. Why bother risking tens of thousands of dollars in legal expenses and months, if not years of delays, when you could simply pass on the deal? The APPA doesn't need the APL.
Contracts are legally binding, so it is worth a decent amount for a business lol…. I have always wanted one main league honestly, yet I see the benefits in having two to three, so you don't have a "monopoly" with the PSP. However, this league could provide a more affordable league than pep, but it will be a joke without the APPA, and therefor will not really benefit any players.
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:15 PM #31
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Uh, thank you, but I understand exactly how they work. You are correct, they do not prevent anything, but they provide insurance if something is done. If you have two parties that consent to a specific clause or contract, on a written document, it is legally binding by both parties. So would it prevent Shawn from doing this? No. Would he suffer legal consequences this time if he did? Absolutely. You don't do this because it could potentially cost you time in the future, you do it for the players. I understand your view point, there is just ways around it that would benefit the players, and they are never considered.

Contracts are legally binding, so it is worth a decent amount for a business lol…. I have always wanted one main league honestly, yet I see the benefits in having two to three, so you don't have a "monopoly" with the PSP. However, this league could provide a more affordable league than pep, but it will be a joke without the APPA, and therefor will not really benefit any players.
Although I think APPA should be used, and that there are ways to prevent what happened before from happening again, I think what raehl is saying is you cant sue a company that doesnt exist.

From what I understand and believe (I know everyone believes something different) shawn had personal money mixed in with nppl. He took personal loses but had no way of getting them back because the nppl went bankrupted and at that point any legal actions that could be taken were out the window. So if APL were to go under and they did something that was against the contract agreements, APPA would have no one to go after.
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:16 PM #32
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Contracts don't actually work the way that they sound like they do in your business law textbook though.

Either way, moot point. Business has been attempted in the past and ethical lines were crossed, no more business will be done in the future. Why would someone engage in business with someone who has already attempted to steal from them and has a history involving bankruptcy?
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:31 PM #33
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Maybe I'm missing something but allowing the APPA to be the registered ranking system wouldn't require back end access by the league. Though that was done in the past, the mistake was realized, why not just limit the access so it doesn't happen again?!

If the APPA's model structure is set up to allow each and every one of its "renters" to access the back end, I'd say that's a strange way to keep proprietary information proprietary for very long...
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:13 PM #34
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Chris,

If I remember correctly, the APPA was created to give the players and all the leagues the opportunity for one universal paintball ranking system. Would I be correct? That said, you are just as bad as all the others now, you seem concerned of your own political and personal gain instead of the following the vision the system was intended for. For that, once again, the players lose.

For once, I'd love to see an open forum where players and others in the industry could have an open conversation with you on this and other items that you do your best to avoid, rather than hide behind your keyboard and only make comments when you think you are right. I've seen this for years and now its time to stop being a *****.

I'm sick of politics ruining our sport.

Ok, I am done venting now.... Sorry everybody.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:49 PM #35
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Sorry that came to mind while reading this. My thought to the whole subject would be if the APL uses APPL charge them to have an APPL staff member to run APL end for them. That prevents any and all backdoor attempts. Yea I am sure this will cause an increase in entry fees and a lower in the winnings but really what the players want is the sport to thrive and If the companies that run paintball can't work together how do you expect the sport to move anywhere but into the grave. You both know that there is a way to work out a deal that benefits both companies without screwing over the community. You just have to remember its for the community not for you.
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:01 AM #36
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Although I think APPA should be used, and that there are ways to prevent what happened before from happening again, I think what raehl is saying is you cant sue a company that doesnt exist.

From what I understand and believe (I know everyone believes something different) shawn had personal money mixed in with nppl. He took personal loses but had no way of getting them back because the nppl went bankrupted and at that point any legal actions that could be taken were out the window. So if APL were to go under and they did something that was against the contract agreements, APPA would have no one to go after.
True, but if APL goes under, was anything really stole from APPA?

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Contracts don't actually work the way that they sound like they do in your business law textbook though.

Either way, moot point. Business has been attempted in the past and ethical lines were crossed, no more business will be done in the future. Why would someone engage in business with someone who has already attempted to steal from them and has a history involving bankruptcy?
Sure they do, it's a legal binding document. It is exactly as it sounds if followed through correctly. Will APL be set up as a LLC,Partnership, Corporation, Limited Partnership? I am just curious...

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Maybe I'm missing something but allowing the APPA to be the registered ranking system wouldn't require back end access by the league. Though that was done in the past, the mistake was realized, why not just limit the access so it doesn't happen again?!

If the APPA's model structure is set up to allow each and every one of its "renters" to access the back end, I'd say that's a strange way to keep proprietary information proprietary for very long...
Valid point, unless I am also missing something..
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:42 PM #37
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Uh, thank you, but I understand exactly how they work. You are correct, they do not prevent anything, but they provide insurance if something is done. If you have two parties that consent to a specific clause or contract, on a written document, it is legally binding by both parties. So would it prevent Shawn from doing this? No. Would he suffer legal consequences this time if he did? Absolutely. You don't do this because it could potentially cost you time in the future, you do it for the players. I understand your view point, there is just ways around it that would benefit the players, and they are never considered.

Contracts are legally binding, so it is worth a decent amount for a business lol…. I have always wanted one main league honestly, yet I see the benefits in having two to three, so you don't have a "monopoly" with the PSP. However, this league could provide a more affordable league than pep, but it will be a joke without the APPA, and therefor will not really benefit any players.
It's only a piece of paper until you spend the time and money to enforce it. In case you haven't gotten the hint, Chris isn't in a hurry to start a legal battle that could be easily avoided by walking away now.
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Chris,

If I remember correctly, the APPA was created to give the players and all the leagues the opportunity for one universal paintball ranking system. Would I be correct? That said, you are just as bad as all the others now, you seem concerned of your own political and personal gain instead of the following the vision the system was intended for. For that, once again, the players lose.

For once, I'd love to see an open forum where players and others in the industry could have an open conversation with you on this and other items that you do your best to avoid, rather than hide behind your keyboard and only make comments when you think you are right. I've seen this for years and now its time to stop being a *****.

I'm sick of politics ruining our sport.

Ok, I am done venting now.... Sorry everybody.
Political and personal gain? Tell me, what personal gain does Chris make by turning down an offer that will make him money? What political gain is to be had when the league in question is formed from the remains of the laughingstock of tournament paintball? You're so focused on venting that you aren't even thinking before you post.

Here's some food for thought: There's not enough money floating around to sustain two large leagues. Here we have Chris turning down the request to lay down a foundation for league #3. Is this about pride, or is it about protecting the players by refusing to be a part of another attempt at leeching off the one league that matters?
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:10 PM #38
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Is this about pride, or is it about protecting the players by refusing to be a part of another attempt at leeching off the one league that matters?
When you say the one league that matters are you referring to the PSP? Who in this industry is in the right to say what league is best for the sport?

Look at baseball, how many main leagues are there? 1. how many set formats are there? 1.

Look at football, how many main leagues are there? 1. How many set formats are there? 1.

Look at basketball, how many mail leagues are there? 1. How many set formats are there? 1.


Now until paintball has one set format that everyone can agree on, there is no one league that matters the most. APPA claims to be "The Best System for PAINTBALL" and I think most of us agree. The fact that Chris built a system that can make or break a league is great, but it shouldnt be used to break a league.

I am well aware of the history, and there are only 2 parties that know how the conversation went. For all of us to jump on one side or the other is wrong. For people to point blame at things before a league first tournament is where the sport is going wrong.

I wish things could be talked through for the better of the sport, but if not then this blows.


eforce, you really seem to be strongly on one side here. Does it have to do with some history between pbn and the other side?

Last edited by contract*killa : 12-10-2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:06 PM #39
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When you say the one league that matters are you referring to the PSP? Who in this industry is in the right to say what league is best for the sport?
Depends how you look at it.

The pro players chose the PSP when they abandoned the NPPL pro division.
The divisional players chose the PSP when so few signed up for NPPL that they couldn't even run core divisions.
The industry itself chose the PSP as you can clearly see on the sponsor page of each league site.

It seems to me like everyone already spoke up. You haven't listened.
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Look at baseball, how many main leagues are there? 1. how many set formats are there? 1.

Look at football, how many main leagues are there? 1. How many set formats are there? 1.

Look at basketball, how many mail leagues are there? 1. How many set formats are there? 1.
This isn't helping your case. The defining name in national level paintball is undeniably the PSP. If you would care to say otherwise, I invite you to visit the news forum where the second largest national league had to make a thread just to let players know they're alive.
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Now until paintball has one set format that everyone can agree on, there is no one league that matters the most.
We don't need to debate what the prevailing format is, or why it's best. The guy that ran the highest level 7-man events in the world is using the 5-man format in his new league. You don't need to sit in on merger talks or work as a bigshot within the industry to read between the lines here and see what's happening. The numbers don't lie. 7-man is dead, 5-man is the winning format. I'm not saying 7-man sucks, I'm not saying I'm happy to see a classic format go out in the same fashion that 10-man did. All I'm saying is that all signs point to 5-man as the future format of paintball.

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APPA claims to be "The Best System for PAINTBALL" and I think most of us agree. The fact that Chris built a system that can make or break a league is great, but it shouldnt be used to break a league.
Do you think registration broke the NPPL?

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I am well aware of the history, and there are only 2 parties that know how the conversation went. For all of us to jump on one side or the other is wrong. For people to point blame at things before a league first tournament is where the sport is going wrong.
If you knew the history, you would understand that all names aside, this is not the first tournament.

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eforce, you really seem to be strongly on one side here. Does it have to do with some history between pbn and the other side?
Look, I can only lead you to understand so much without your own help, and I say that without an ounce of condescending intent. You're posting in the APL forum made by PbNation. Think about what that means.

Shawn isn't content focusing on the RPL and his own local ventures, and he keeps going after each incarnation of the NPPL and its affiliates. While I respect his continuous drive at the national level, there are certain realities to face here. The APPA doesn't trust him, the NPPL owes players money (yes, I know the technical separation of debt), and this is the second time an attempt has been made to use 5-man as a means of pulling teams from the PSP. You see a new league, a new option, a new name on the ballot. I see the next NPPL and another league that fails to draw the teams necessary to sustain itself while simultaneously scraping away at limited industry resources. I see a guy smart enough to recognize the carrying capacity of the industry choosing to stretch it anyway.

Last edited by eforce : 12-10-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:15 PM #40
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Depends how you look at it.

The pro players chose the PSP when they abandoned the NPPL pro division.
The divisional players chose the PSP when so few signed up for NPPL that they couldn't even run core divisions.
The industry itself chose the PSP as you can clearly see on the sponsor page of each league site.

It seems to me like everyone already spoke up. You haven't listened.
Depends how you look at it.

People complain about psp, and people complained about nppl.

Players of all divisions chose the league that wasnt broken. If you deny that teams chose nppl before it went bankrupt then Im not sure what to say.

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This isn't helping your case. The defining name in national level paintball is undeniably the PSP. If you would care to say otherwise, I invite you to visit the news forum where the second largest national league had to make a thread just to let players know they're alive.
I think we can agree there. Again, since nppl went bankrupt they havent been very big at all.

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We don't need to debate what the prevailing format is, or why it's best. The guy that ran the highest level 7-man events in the world is using the 5-man format in his new league. You don't need to sit in on merger talks or work as a bigshot within the industry to read between the lines here and see what's happening. The numbers don't lie. 7-man is dead, 5-man is the winning format. I'm not saying 7-man sucks, I'm not saying I'm happy to see a classic format go out in the same fashion that 10-man did. All I'm saying is that all signs point to 5-man as the future format of paintball.
I think we have different definitions of format here. Yes 7-man is dead, I never said it was alive. 5-man is not a format (at least not by my definition).

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Do you think registration broke the NPPL?
Not sure why you keep bringing up nppl, but Ill play along.
NPPL broke for a few reasons, and has been broken since 08. Although Ive never heard someone say "you know what NPPL is doing right? Their ranking system" no one liked it. But my reference to make it or break it was about the APL and not the NPPL.

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If you knew the history, you would understand that all names aside, this is not the first tournament.
Maybe tournament was the wrong word. How about event. I dont think APL has had an event yet have they?

Is this the first run in that both sides have had? no, you are right there. But I dont think we can really argue the fact that there has not been a APL event yet.

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Look, I can only lead you to understand so much without your own help, and I say that without an ounce of condescending intent. You're posting in the APL forum made by PbNation. Think about what that means.
Doesnt mean much about your personal views, but I guess I will call that irrelevant for now.

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Originally Posted by eforce View Post
Shawn isn't content focusing on the RPL and his own local ventures, and he keeps going after each incarnation of the NPPL and its affiliates. While I respect his continuous drive at the national level, there are certain realities to face here. The APPA doesn't trust him, the NPPL owes players money (yes, I know the technical separation of debt), and this is the second time an attempt has been made to use 5-man as a means of pulling teams from the PSP. You see a new league, a new option, a new name on the ballot. I see the next NPPL and another league that fails to draw the teams necessary to sustain itself while simultaneously scraping away at limited industry resources. I see a guy smart enough to recognize the carrying capacity of the industry choosing to stretch it anyway.
I see someone who runs a smooth ship here locally, and who ran pretty good events back in the day.

Dont get me wrong, I see where you are coming from.

Time will tell. Either history repeats itself, or changes are made for the better.

Last edited by contract*killa : 12-10-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:27 PM #41
RepN the 417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
It's only a piece of paper until you spend the time and money to enforce it. In case you haven't gotten the hint, Chris isn't in a hurry to start a legal battle that could be easily avoided by walking away now.

If your in Shawn's shoes, and you have legal ramifications facing you, your not going to do anything of the sort. Unless you are the most idiotic person on this earth. You refuse to see the big picture, which is the players and what benefits them. They are, mind you, the reason Chris has a business… I see the viewpoint from the APPA, I really do, but we need to look at the big picture for once.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:03 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
The pro players chose the PSP when they abandoned the NPPL pro division.
The divisional players chose the PSP when so few signed up for NPPL that they couldn't even run core divisions.
The industry itself chose the PSP as you can clearly see on the sponsor page of each league site.

It seems to me like everyone already spoke up. You haven't listened.
The players chose to play where their sponsors told them to play...that's not quite the same thing as speaking up on what their preference was.

The big 3 (Dye, GI Sports, & Kee) chose to sponsor the league that they are principal owners of...everyone else set up their booths where they knew the majority of players were being told to play.

None of your examples quoted show ringing endorsements of the PSP, as much as they show that the majority of the players will allow the small discounts disguised as "sponsorship" dictate where & what they play.
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