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Old 01-11-2014, 09:53 PM #43
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You could check by putting the pin in and see if it is loose in the valve.
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:40 PM #44
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Two weeks to get the bumper (have a mentioned DP is slow?).

Any way, with the bumper installed the gun still dumps air out of the barrel. And by dump I mean about 1k from the tank in a few seconds.

My friend who has a FX now lives close to me again so I was able to swap parts around. His internals in my body leaks, and my internals in his body does not leak. So I have confirmed the body is damaged which is what DP said.

Seeing the guns next to each other I noticed some damage further down the side of the inner circle. But if I understand how the gun works this would not cause a leak.

So I am going back to thinking the damage on the top of the inner circle is causing the leak. This circle sits higher than the outer circle so I am thinking milling/sanding it down work cause more of an issue.

The only option that I am thinking that has a possibility of working (minus buying a new body) is gluing an oring on the back of the valve pin so it sits on the inner circle and seals. Any idea what type of glue I should use for this?

So what do you think...

A) Damage further down is causing the leak.
B) Damage on the top of the inner circle is causing the leak.
C) Oring might work (what glue do I use?)
D) Milling/sanding might work.

My gun is on the left. Full screen linked so you can see the detail.

http://imgur.com/c90azpL


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Old 01-25-2014, 04:42 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadmuppet View Post
Two weeks to get the bumper (have a mentioned DP is slow?).

Any way, with the bumper installed the gun still dumps air out of the barrel. And by dump I mean about 1k from the tank in a few seconds.

My friend who has a FX now lives close to me again so I was able to swap parts around. His internals in my body leaks, and my internals in his body does not leak. So I have confirmed the body is damaged which is what DP said.

Seeing the guns next to each other I noticed some damage further down the side of the inner circle. But if I understand how the gun works this would not cause a leak.

So I am going back to thinking the damage on the top of the inner circle is causing the leak. This circle sits higher than the outer circle so I am thinking milling/sanding it down work cause more of an issue.

The only option that I am thinking that has a possibility of working (minus buying a new body) is gluing an oring on the back of the valve pin so it sits on the inner circle and seals. Any idea what type of glue I should use for this?

So what do you think...

A) Damage further down is causing the leak.
B) Damage on the top of the inner circle is causing the leak.
C) Oring might work (what glue do I use?)
D) Milling/sanding might work.

My gun is on the left. Full screen linked so you can see the detail.

http://imgur.com/c90azpL
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/c90azpL.jpg[IMG]

[video]http://youtu.be/I7fc6jbaCFw[video]

Good pic .

Exactly what I suspected early on.





As for a solution, that is a tough one. I believe the nicks on that rim surface are allowing the air to bypass the valve pin seal. That surface needs to be flat and smooth in order to create a good sealing surface. I think the only option you may have to fix this is option D you have above - but it is going to be VERY difficult to get it flat (perpendicular to the direction of the pin when in place).
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:01 PM #46
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Well I guess the body is useless as is so there is no danger of ****ing it up.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:19 PM #47
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Well I guess the body is useless as is so there is no danger of ****ing it up.
What I don't get though is that you got it to not leak at one point. It maly not he a total loss if you can replicate those conditions somehow.
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Old 01-26-2014, 07:48 AM #48
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Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
What I don't get though is that you got it to not leak at one point. It maly not he a total loss if you can replicate those conditions somehow.
Well the gun had just come back from DP, no bumper, internals were bone dry and the gun would not fire. I am assuming there was another hangup that was not letting air even get to the leak area.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:15 PM #49
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Originally Posted by dreadmuppet View Post
Well the gun had just come back from DP, no bumper, internals were bone dry and the gun would not fire. I am assuming there was another hangup that was not letting air even get to the leak area.
Ahhhhhh.....gotcha.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:23 PM #50
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A skilled machinist might be able to mill the valve face flat.

I dont understand why the valve is integrated into the body. If it was removable, you could just replace it just like any other gun. The valve is a wear part and this happens to poppet valve guns every once and a while. Happened on my vice. It does not take much to cause a poppet leak.


A skilled machinist might be able to slightly mill the face of the valve. The valve pin spring should take up any slack and it could be shimmed if necessary but I doubt that would be required.


The pin would stick forward a little bit and cause the ram to open the valve a little sooner, that might not be a bad thing though. Similar to the bob long LP poppet.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:16 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
Good pic .

Exactly what I suspected early on.





As for a solution, that is a tough one. I believe the nicks on that rim surface are allowing the air to bypass the valve pin seal. That surface needs to be flat and smooth in order to create a good sealing surface. I think the only option you may have to fix this is option D you have above - but it is going to be VERY difficult to get it flat (perpendicular to the direction of the pin when in place).
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadmuppet View Post
Any way, with the bumper installed the gun still dumps air out of the barrel. And by dump I mean about 1k from the tank in a few seconds.
Something doesn't seem right. I completely understand those nicks causing the gun to leak, but he makes it sound pretty much as if there were no valve pin in there at all. He said the original problem was the valve pin was stuck, which makes me think, is the valve pin going all the way back in the valve?

Try reassembling the gun, and with no gas push the bolt pin/ram forward and then push the valve open. You should feel how you can push the bolt/ram forward, then it will hit the pin, and with more effort you can open it. If you just go to a dead stop and cannot push any further, then the pin isn't going all the way in, closing.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:28 PM #52
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Option 2 that I just thought of...

Part 32 (with o-rings 33) are you sure the top o-ring is intact and seating properly?

http://www.dangerouspower.com/Products_FX.php

Scroll down to the body cutaway, the red part with the 2 o-rings under the valve pin. If that oring isn't sealing properly then air would be escaping through the breach.



Also, is the black rubber seal on the valve pin good too? If that is worn away that could cause the leak to be bad too.

Again, I'm not surprised those nicks are causing a leak, I'm just surprised that they're causing that bad of a leak. Unless they are much deeper than they look.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:42 PM #53
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Option 2 that I just thought of...

Part 32 (with o-rings 33) are you sure the top o-ring is intact and seating properly?

http://www.dangerouspower.com/Products_FX.php

Scroll down to the body cutaway, the red part with the 2 o-rings under the valve pin. If that oring isn't sealing properly then air would be escaping through the breach.



Also, is the black rubber seal on the valve pin good too? If that is worn away that could cause the leak to be bad too.

Again, I'm not surprised those nicks are causing a leak, I'm just surprised that they're causing that bad of a leak. Unless they are much deeper than they look.
No, I don't think that red part would cause a leak just at rest - only during a shot. The front part (volumizer) is really the only place that has any air pressure waiting to escape (the tail of the ram being the other - ignoring the solenoid for the moment). The air pressure is held back by the contact surface of that "valve" rim and the back part of the valve pin. Everything past that surface has no air pressure until you get beyond the o-ring on the tail of the ram. You did hit on the other part of the contact surface in question here - the black rubber-like surface on the back of the valve pin.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:54 AM #54
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Quote:
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No, I don't think that red part would cause a leak just at rest - only during a shot. The front part (volumizer) is really the only place that has any air pressure waiting to escape (the tail of the ram being the other - ignoring the solenoid for the moment). The air pressure is held back by the contact surface of that "valve" rim and the back part of the valve pin. Everything past that surface has no air pressure until you get beyond the o-ring on the tail of the ram. You did hit on the other part of the contact surface in question here - the black rubber-like surface on the back of the valve pin.
to feed air from the reg to the noid, there is a lengthwise tube that is is drilled almost the full length of the gun. For the valve to connect to the breech, there is a hole that is drilled from the bottom of the gun into the breech. These 2 drills interest, and the red part with the 2 orings seal them off. If the top oring was bad, that could cause air flowing down the breach.

I attached 2 pictures that I hope make sense. The first shows how air (green arrow would normally flow with good orings, and the second is how air could go into the breach with a bad oring.

EDIT: Tube isn't full length, it does run the the volumizer area, but still the same thing applies. That is the small hole below the valve opening. So imagine the small green line starting at below the pin valve instead of the by the volumizer. It is late and I was thinking of the airway in the G series. Sorry.

The valve doesn't seal it, either. If the valve sealed it at rest, the gun would never cycle (the air needs to get the noid so that it can allow the air to go to the back of ram, push the ram forward, THEN the valve is opened).
Attached Images
File Type: png normal flow.png (89.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: png bad oring.png (83.8 KB, 5 views)
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Last edited by Racso : 01-27-2014 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:20 AM #55
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to feed air from the reg to the noid, there is a lengthwise tube that is is drilled almost the full length of the gun. For the valve to connect to the breech, there is a hole that is drilled from the bottom of the gun into the breech. These 2 drills interest, and the red part with the 2 orings seal them off. If the top oring was bad, that could cause air flowing down the breach.

I attached 2 pictures that I hope make sense. The first shows how air (green arrow would normally flow with good orings, and the second is how air could go into the breach with a bad oring.

EDIT: Tube isn't full length, it does run the the volumizer area, but still the same thing applies. That is the small hole below the valve opening. So imagine the small green line starting at below the pin valve instead of the by the volumizer. It is late and I was thinking of the airway in the G series. Sorry.

The valve doesn't seal it, either. If the valve sealed it at rest, the gun would never cycle (the air needs to get the noid so that it can allow the air to go to the back of ram, push the ram forward, THEN the valve is opened).
Derrrrp. Yup. You are correct, I forgot about that.
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:06 AM #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso View Post
Something doesn't seem right. I completely understand those nicks causing the gun to leak, but he makes it sound pretty much as if there were no valve pin in there at all. He said the original problem was the valve pin was stuck, which makes me think, is the valve pin going all the way back in the valve?

Try reassembling the gun, and with no gas push the bolt pin/ram forward and then push the valve open. You should feel how you can push the bolt/ram forward, then it will hit the pin, and with more effort you can open it. If you just go to a dead stop and cannot push any further, then the pin isn't going all the way in, closing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso View Post
Option 2 that I just thought of...

Part 32 (with o-rings 33) are you sure the top o-ring is intact and seating properly?

http://www.dangerouspower.com/Products_FX.php

Scroll down to the body cutaway, the red part with the 2 o-rings under the valve pin. If that oring isn't sealing properly then air would be escaping through the breach.



Also, is the black rubber seal on the valve pin good too? If that is worn away that could cause the leak to be bad too.

Again, I'm not surprised those nicks are causing a leak, I'm just surprised that they're causing that bad of a leak. Unless they are much deeper than they look.
Rasco thanks for the input. Bolt and ram movement feel fine when there is no air. All orings are new and look good. All of my FX internal parts work with my friend's FX body. My friend's FX internal parts do NOT work in my FX body.

I am amazed as well that it is leaking that much air from those little nicks but after all the testing DP and I have done it seems to be the only explanation.

I know a machinist that is going to make an attempt at smoothing it out. If that does not work, anyone have a FX with a good body but damaged internals they want to sell?
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:31 PM #57
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usually a little tiny nick will cause a decent leak. A big nick like that is sure to be pretty loud.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:57 AM #58
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usually a little tiny nick will cause a decent leak. A big nick like that is sure to be pretty loud.
I have to wonder what could cause damage like that on the inside of the gun? The other internals work in a different body. Wouldn't they show some wear and tear if they are what caused the damage in the first place?
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:04 PM #59
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Quote:
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Good pic .

Exactly what I suspected early on.





As for a solution, that is a tough one. I believe the nicks on that rim surface are allowing the air to bypass the valve pin seal. That surface needs to be flat and smooth in order to create a good sealing surface. I think the only option you may have to fix this is option D you have above - but it is going to be VERY difficult to get it flat (perpendicular to the direction of the pin when in place).
Aren't those nicks on an oring? What it looks like to me anyways.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:14 PM #60
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Aren't those nicks on an oring? What it looks like to me anyways.
That would make for a quick fix, wouldn't it. Unfortunately, it IS NOT an o-ring. It is actually part of the marker body and is an aluminum edge that sticks up a tiny bit from the remaining surface that is seen to the outside of that ring.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:20 PM #61
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usually a little tiny nick will cause a decent leak. A big nick like that is sure to be pretty loud.
That's crazy, they look so small (I mean I know they're small, but even in relative terms they look small), it is just crazy how they're letting so much air out.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:40 PM #62
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Could you putt some kind of rubber washer on the back of the pin to compensate for the nicks?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:49 PM #63
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Could you putt some kind of rubber washer on the back of the pin to compensate for the nicks?
There already is. That is the way the seal is designed. The rim of the "valve" making contact with the ribberish plastic on the back of the pin.
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Black and Silver Dangerous Power F8
APE Rampage board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, F8 gauge, REDZ barrel kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
Polished Aluminum and Red Dangerous Power F8
Virtue board, VS bolt, magnet trigger kit, Halo B w/ Exalt feedgate, PMI 68/4500
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