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Old 08-18-2013, 02:02 PM #1
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Tontons player shooting 352 at PSP Riverside [Official PSP Response and sanctions]

Do you think it was do to the heat and the paintballs just fit his barrel perfectly or he was trying to be a sneaky little bugger?

Quick summary of what happened:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVsColoradoKing View Post
Ton Ton's were up 3-0 and received 4 hot gun penalties, one gun was chronoed at 352 and was confiscated by PSP and is under investigation to see whether it was intentional. I mean the first point of this game the Ton ton's shot 3 or 4 aftershock players off the break and where just rolling over Aftershock, no wonder, they where all shooting 300+ besides one if their players. The guy that got the 352 hot gun major also received a match misconduct and has to sit out for 3 games.
Lane just posted this on 8/19/13 at 3:52 PM Central time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lane Wright View Post
A few real points --

1. Teams claimed TonTons were shooting hot on the break.
2. If PSP took the word of every team that claimed another team was doing something illegal (after they lost to them) and PSP went and looked into every claim, we'd A) have to make the events 8 days long; B) have to hire a team of forensic investigators to swing into action 46 times a day at the events C) have to raise entry fees to $8600 per team to pay for the CSI unit to patrol the events
3. At some point enough people gave credible info for PSP to consider the fact that something may be going plausible
4. Two separate individuals on the PSP staff watched the first 2 points of the TonTon Shock game and independently felt there were peculiar activities regarding the way the TonTons were handling their guns during chrono and prior to game start
5. The guns were spot chrono'd by surprise and 4 TonTon guns were indeed shooting hot. 1 slightly hot, 2 extremely hot, and 1 unbelievably hot. Aftershock also had 2 guns shooting slightly higher than 300fps.
6. Some TonTon equipment was confiscated and checked by techs.
7. There's no evidence that the guns were intentionally set up to cheat. Nothing about the guns and what they were doing would have given any real advantage to the team using them.
8. That doesn't mean it was just simply a accidental mistake however.
9. The chrono's were not malfunctioning. The issue had nothing to do with temperature change or paint size.

The TonTon's are not dirty cheating bastards - or at least the facts of this situation do not prove or even lean toward that conclusion.

The PSP did not knowingly let them play games with break out modes because we were too lazy to do anything, have no regard for safety, or any other of the ridiculous reasons people have surmised.

Additional penalties will be forthcoming. There is no evidence that the TonTon's engaged in intentional acts to gain advantage over teams and no evidence that malice was involved. Knowing the actual facts about what the guns were doing and/or not doing - there's no reason to believe the issues gave them any actual unfair advantage during competition.

Be that as it may, what they did was unsafe, irresponsible, irrational and outside of the conduct expected from any team - especially a professional team. It is conduct that we do not take lightly and conduct that will not tolerated.

PSP will release an official statement regarding the penalties and future sanctions imposed once we can get everyone home from the event and have the time to give the situation and sanctions proper thought.

continued in next post

Last edited by John : 08-22-2013 at 09:25 AM. Reason: added Lane's post
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:04 PM #2
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Official response from the TonTons on 8/22/13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Release TonTon

Firstly, I would like to apologize on behalf of the entire "Tonton" team for the events that took place at the PSP West Coast Open, and I need to express that it has all been blown completely out of proportions.

The TonTon team has existed for more than 21 years, and we have been playing at the highest level for most this time. This year we have decided to put all our efforts into playing the most challenging and difficult paintball league in the world, the PSP.

For us, playing the PSP means a lot of sacrifice, and this has only been possible with thanks to our sponsors, especially DYE, for whom we have the greatest respect.
The fact we are a team from Europe, the efforts we have to put in on a personal and financial level in order to play the PSP are enormous. We have had to put our jobs and family lives on hold to enable us to compete at this level, and for us to live our passion.

Considering our "Pro" status, that some people may consider our team "Privileged”, and even with the help from our sponsors, we still cannot meet the financial demands to play, but we do manage to compete.

For example, we must fit within our budget to travel a week before every event to work on the layout. This means that with the five PSP events, we spend one and a half months of the year in the USA. Plus bringing into account the cost of hotels, transport and food etc etc, our costs do mount high.
We also have players from 2 different countries, and that even the players themselves who do live in France live far away from each other too.
Therefore, we have a reduced roster in order to fit this within our budget, and be able to play a entire season of PSP.

Secondly, on a personal level I have played for 2 years with the Philly Americans, and I know all too well how many sacrifices have to be made in order to play at a professional level, and in order to be able to play with and against the best.

After our "descent" into the Challengers divisions at the last PSP event, we really wanted to fight our way back into the Pro division and play the PSP World Cup 2013 in the Pro division. So we doubled our efforts in order to make this happen.
But not to the point where we would do anything ‘illegal’ to make this happen. We are not that stupid, to sacrifice all that I have mentioned above by cheating.

Our philosophy is and has always been to train harder, in order to be the best, NEVER to cheat.
I know, by experience, that whatever the nationality, there have always been suspicions towards Pro teams. And even more when an American team comes to play in Europe, or when an European team comes to play in the United States.

History has taught us that. Just look back, what were then just ‘rumors’, when Dynasty was dominating the Millennium, or when Joy Division was playing the NPPL..... In the end, the reality of these rumors was the level of skill of these teams on the field, and the fans that support their favourite teams that made the "myths".
This sometimes leads to passionate debates, and exaggerated comments on any "incident " about a team. This is part of the game, part of the sport, part of any sport. And in this way, it is also part of paintball.

As a Pro paintball team, we know this can happen in good and in bad "incidents”. And on this note, what pro player or pro team, has never been in this kind of situation?
The more you are exposed, the more you become vulnerable to these kind of outbursts.
Thats just the way it is.

So I digress, moving back to the basis of this letter, during our game against Aftershock, at the start of the 4th point, we had 4 guns that were shooting hot over the chrono. There is no doubt about it.

These are the FACTS and what really happened, and can be verified is on paintballaccess.

The first marker to be checked was Loic Voulot's gun, he was chrono’d between 300 and 310 FPS. He received a minor penalty.
The second marker belonged to Axel Gaudin, whose gun chrono’d below 300 FPS.
The third marker belonged to Frank Chambon, and he was chrono’d at 317 FPS and he received a major penalty.
The fourth gun belongs to Karl Samuelson and was chrono’d at 304 FPS(he received a major in the confusion).
As for me, my gun was chrono’d at 307 FPS, and i received a minor penalty.
Loic Voulot's marker was then re-checked and HIS FIRST SHOT ONLY was chrono’d at 323 FPS and later his gun was re-checked again at 352 Fps.
This was due to a Drop-Off (an o-ring was torn in his regulator) all the shots fired with Loic's marker after the first shot were below 300 FPS.
We verified our markers pre-game with the pit chrono, and this chrono gave us a totally different read on ALL of our markers.(Below 300 FPS as the rules stipulate).Our mistake was to not verify this with a second chrono.
Because any player with a little bit of tournament experience knows that you can get different reads of a chrono, depending on the angle you shoot upon it.

This does NOT excuse the fact that we were shooting "hot". It is 100% our own fault, because we did not double-check our markers.
Especially for the marker that shot 352 FPS ON THE FIRST SHOT ONLY, even though all the other shots with this marker were below 300 FPS, there is no excuse.
We weren't paying enough attention, or maybe we were too "involved " in the game. This is un-excusable at our level.
When I read on the internet that we use cheater modes in our markers, that we have "suspicious " habits of shooting into the grass before games, and that we shoot entire lines of "missiles", I say: NO.

The PSP and the referees, brought in a Dye Technician during the gun check, who took apart all markers that were shooting hot. They concluded that:
All our DM13 were stock (boards, parts, settings).
The DM that was chrono’d at 352 FPS ON THE FIRST SHOT, had a regulator problem, on o-ring used.
None of our DM13 guns were modified to have an increase in velocity during the game.
None of our DM13 guns had a "cheater" Mode.
We would like to thank Lane from the PSP for his press release on this.
Other players, including pros, have been caught with a marker that shoots over 300 FPS. Some have even been caught shooting A LOT HIGHER than our markers, and probably had the same problems that we had.

Even our opponents: Aftershock had 2 markers that were shooting over 300 FPS during our game. Our mistake is to have 4 markers that shot over 300 FPS at the same time, and 1 of those markers shooting very hot on the first shot. It is an unfortunate error on our part, and we have been penalized with minors and majors during the game for this.
But we do not want to serve as scapegoats because we are Europeans in an American competition.

We did NOT ‘cheat’ intentionally, and we do not use cheater modes in our markers to get our victories. We have sacrificed and invested too much, both privately and professionally, and we respect our sponsors (we thank them for their support) too much, to throw it all away in such a stupid and unconsidered way. We have made a human mistake and have lacked responsibility. Nothing more. There is no plot to gain an unjustified advantage. We would like to give our apologies to the spectators, our fans, the players, and to the referees. The referees have a difficult and thankless job, really much more difficult than ours, and we respect them for it.

We are Pro paintball players. Paintball is our passion.

Tavarez

Captain of The team tonton.
The official PSP response to the incident as well as additional sanctions against the TonTons just dropped today: 9/3/13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP Press Release
PSP has come to a decision regarding the incident at the PSP West Coast event in which the professional team TonTons Flinguers had numerous guns in excess of competitive allowances and safety standards.

Penalties for the hot guns were issued during the event per the PSP rules governing game play.

PSP has decided that additional sanctions are warranted following review of game footage, testimony of officials on site, examination of equipment, and interviews with TonTons players.

One or more members of the team willfully took the field with intention of playing the game while knowing their markers were in excess of allowable speed limits. The players in question showed an unjustifiable disregard for the standards in which tournament paintball can safely and fairly be conducted.

The number of players and the degree of excess warrant the additional sanctions. PSP feels the actions fall into the area of unsportsmanlike behavior.

As such, all TonTons matches during the event in which the incidents occurred will be forfeited. The TonTons team will receive zero seed points for the 4th event. Event standings for other teams will be adjusted accordingly.

In addition, the TonTons team will be allowed to play PSP events on a probationary basis through Nov 1st, 2014. The specifics of the probation will be made clear to the team. In general, any violation of the probation will result in the entered team and all players being suspended indefinitely from PSP events, as well as the organization, TonTons Flinguers, being barred from competition in future PSP events.
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Last edited by John : 09-03-2013 at 08:23 PM. Reason: added TonTon's reply so it is at the top of the thread
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:05 PM #3
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:29 PM #4
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Just about 15 min ago I was watching the Aftershock vs. Ton Ton's semi's game and Ton Ton's where up 3-0 and received 4 hot gun penalties, one gun was chronoed at 352 and was confiscated by PSP and is under investigation to see weather it was intentional. I mean the first point of this game the Ton ton's shot 3 or 4 aftershock players off the break and where just rolling over Aftershock, no wonder, they where all shooting 300+ besides one if their players. The guy that got the 352 hot gun major also received a match misconduct and has to sit out for 3 games. That's a huge blow to Ton Ton's considering they only brought 6 players on their roster for this event. Play just resumed. Aftershock was down 3-0 before the hot gun penalties and now Aftershock has taken the lead 5-4 and now Ton Ton's have 5 guys again. Interesting game.


Edit: Link to Dye's Blog with the Official Apology from the Ton Ton's and their team captain. After reading this it just sounds like a cry for sympathy if you ask me IMHO. I mean look, Tampa Bay Damage had no problem with the "One regulator o-ring," said Tavarez- Team captain of Ton Ton's, and their guns shooting hot, let alone 4 at one time during the same point. They had no problems with their DM13's and ended up on top this leg and took 1st in the Champions Division. Rumors are going around of your guys taking their barrels off before games so they wouldn't have to Chrono, why wasn't this explained in the apology? All in all its a dodge subject and only the Ton Ton's know the real answer to the madness, But please, don't sit there and blame the regulator, o-rings, heat, how much effort it takes to travel to and from Europe, and how much you guys sacrifice of your own time and money just to play and compete at the highest level. I'm sorry but all teams have that same problem and give up their personal lives and jobs in order to compete at a national and professional level and by no means are any of the things I listed along with countless other reasons any excuse to have 4 not 1 maybe 2 but 4 of your markers shoot hot and some well over the legal limit. No damn excuse. IMHO you made yourself and the Ton Ton's organization look even worse with your "Apology" trying to blame the equipment for your F-Up and should have never brought in the fact/excuse that since you give up all your personal family time, jobs, capital, etc to play at the level your playing, and what sounds like a,"we are to tired and exhausted from having to devote the same thing all teams at your level devote, to fallow the rules so just f-it, we don't check our equipment" kind of attitude and is a poor poor excuse to try and blame that for this mishap of having 4, that's 4 hot guns at one time. If there is the slightest chance it was a mistake like you speak of then damn, you guys have some ****ty luck! Damage didn't seem to have this issue and took their place at the top of the podium. Well enough of my 2 cents and here's the link to the "Official Apology"/"Cry for Sympathy" letter from Tavarez-Captain of the Ton Ton's.

http://blog.dyepaintball.com/2013/08...st-coast-open/

Last edited by LVsColoradoKing : 08-22-2013 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:30 PM #5
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I'd like to think that no pro team is stupid enough to try and cheat by shooting hot on purpose.

Now a gross oversight on their part on their creeping guns in the heat...that makes more sense
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:32 PM #6
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I'm surprised it took them too long to catch that. Don't the refs crono players off the break?
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:32 PM #7
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4 gun penalties is insane. I be they have a new tech position open.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:32 PM #8
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edit: ^ ^ not as accurate.



a nice bore fit on those nice Dye barrels combined with reg creep or something would do it. Especially if you were at like 290-295 or something.

I always check my guns mid day. Sucks for the Ton Ton's but they should be checking these things. They are Professionals.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:35 PM #9
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^^Agreed. They are blaming it on the heat, with it being so hot, their O-rings swelled up as well as their paint which caused them to shoot hot according to Ton Ton's
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:42 PM #10
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Those penalties hurt the Ton Ton's and Aftershock just came back to complete the win 7-6 Aftershock. So it will be Aftershock and Upton 187 Crew in the challengers Finals and we will be seeing Aftershock and 187 Crew in the Champions division at World Cup

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Old 08-18-2013, 02:46 PM #11
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I'm sorry, but the heat won't make your gun jump in 50+ fps. I play in the heat every week and most my gun has ever been "hot" was 315 when I set it to 300 and it was only 1-2 shots out of 20.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:46 PM #12
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There is no way that heat will make a gun shoot 352.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:52 PM #13
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If your gun spikes 50+fps, something either gone seriously wrong mechanically, or it's deliberate. Once could have been a mistake, but to have all those guns over 320? I'd be hard pressed to believe that's not something that was done on purpose. And why? Honestly, as much as I like the Shock guys and love to support my region's teams, Ton Tons were playing better than Shock. They didn't have to cheat to beat them.

And there's today's lesson, kids. Cheaters never prosper.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:02 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
Sucks for the Ton Ton's but they should be checking these things. They are Professionals.
Exactly.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:09 PM #15
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100% deliberate. Chrono early and often a lesson you learn when you own a tippmann let alone a pro team. Chrono before every match and during. I blame Ton tons and
The psp for not checking all guns more often
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:11 PM #16
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The heat doesn't effect just guns it can swell paint. Running paint thru a large bore vs the correct bore can raise fps significantly.

They are also shooting dye spools which are known to have fsdo. Not making excuses but it can happen.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:12 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyballer099639 View Post
I'm sorry, but the heat won't make your gun jump in 50+ fps. I play in the heat every week and most my gun has ever been "hot" was 315 when I set it to 300 and it was only 1-2 shots out of 20.
Totally agree. I live in Las Vegas and play in 105 to 115 degree heat every week and never have that problem with my Droid, Ego, Drone, Mini ever spiking 50+ FPS. Ton Tons are somewhat known for this over the past years for shooting hot in events so it wouldn't be their first time. It's like Aftershock coach said, he respects every player and team in the sport but he lost a lot of respect for the Ton Ton Organization, as did I. This is uncalled for and as a professional team you shouldn't even have 1 Hot gun penalty the whole event let alone 3 in 1 point during a game.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:18 PM #18
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Thats a nice excuse for them, but you know when your personal gun is shooting hot or not. You can feel the difference in kick from 285 fps, to 350. Its very noticeable, and to not even consider checking is kinda bs. It was noticeable enough that the refs decided to check. To be honest i havent had a reg creep since i owned an f7 fusion and the reg seat was crushed. There are no excuses, at any level.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:20 PM #19
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352 ft/ somebody needs a smackin.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:21 PM #20
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People believing a pro didn't notice the diff in 290ish to 350 are just stupid. The end.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:21 PM #21
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Originally Posted by monkeyballer099639 View Post
I'm sorry, but the heat won't make your gun jump in 50+ fps. I play in the heat every week and most my gun has ever been "hot" was 315 when I set it to 300 and it was only 1-2 shots out of 20.
I totally agree. I live in Las Vegas and play every week in 105 to 115 degree heat and have not once had a problem with my Droid, Ego, Drone, or my Mini spiking 50+ FPS while playing. This doesn't look good for Ton Ton's. Its like aftershocks coach said after the game, Ton Ton's are a professional organization and there is no reason or excuse why your guns are shooting hot , let alone 50+ FPS HOT over the rule limit and they should not get even 1 hot gun penalty during an event let alone 4 in one point during a game, a Semi's game at that. I have lost alot of respect for the Ton Ton's as a team. It's sad to say but Ton Ton's are known in the past for getting hot gun penalties at events. No wonder ton ton's blew up 4 guys off the break in the first point.


On another note Houston Heat isn't looking very good verse Impact. They are down 4-5 but have some life as Impact just received a major so will be down 4 to 5 bodies off the break for 2:00 min.
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