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Old 09-06-2013, 02:48 PM #64
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Originally Posted by I LOVE JESUS!!! View Post
It's going to take more than some hoaky theories and a few mocked up bird pictures to convince me. That pic doesn't definitively prove evolution to be true. There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind. If it was true there would be evidence to support it. Scientists have had 150+ years since Darwin snookered academia to dig up some hard evidence. Yet all you can come up with is a picture of an early chicken?

As far as your corn theory goes, it's quite obvious to me that it didn't evolve at all. It says in plain English that modern corn was CREATED by superior beings. In this case the superior being obviously is humans.


Here's one to think about.

"There is no doubt that as far as his macroevolutionary claims were concerned Darwin's central problem in the Origin lay in the fact that he had absolutely no direct empirical evidence in the existence of clear-cut intermediates that evolution on a major scale had ever occurred and that any of the major divisions of nature had been crossed gradually through a sequence of transitional forms." - Michael Denton from his book - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
Explain to me how different breeds of dogs came to be.

Explain the fossils which show hollowing of bones and the stippling patterns of feathers growing on reptilian dinosaurs.

Explain why ALL life on this planet is made up of the same 22 amino acids, even though there are almost 400 amino acids to be developed from.

Explain the position of development that the tiktaalik gives us.



Or the exemplary and vastly different connections between orchids and their environmental influences (mainly insect species).





If you really care to do some research:

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v8.../6884120a.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:06 PM #65
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Instead of our biological life form evolving, we manipulate our environment to adapt it to us rather than the reverse.

Disappear the electricity, transportation system, homes and apartments, infrastructure, oil, coal, fertilizer, mechanized farming and guess what? We will have a huge die off and likely become an endangered species in very short order. Our "intelligence" has become specialized. The vast majority of us might have difficulty growing food and raising pigs and horses. So much for intelligence.... Computer programmers would be obsolete. Car mechanics. Even doctors.
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:22 PM #66
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Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Instead of our biological life form evolving, we manipulate our environment to adapt it to us rather than the reverse.

Disappear the electricity, transportation system, homes and apartments, infrastructure, oil, coal, fertilizer, mechanized farming and guess what? We will have a huge die off and likely become an endangered species in very short order. Our "intelligence" has become specialized. The vast majority of us might have difficulty growing food and raising pigs and horses. So much for intelligence.... Computer programmers would be obsolete. Car mechanics. Even doctors.
It's a push pull.

These things will phase out overtime. It's improbable that humanity would wake up one morning and find itself without industrial society. Slow descent. So your point is moot, we will adapt until our form is no longer suited to the climate.
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Old 09-07-2013, 01:04 AM #67
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Explain to me how different breeds of dogs came to be.

Explain the fossils which show hollowing of bones and the stippling patterns of feathers growing on reptilian dinosaurs.

Explain why ALL life on this planet is made up of the same 22 amino acids, even though there are almost 400 amino acids to be developed from.

Explain the position of development that the tiktaalik gives us.



Or the exemplary and vastly different connections between orchids and their environmental influences (mainly insect species).





If you really care to do some research:

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v8.../6884120a.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
I'm asking for proof so you explain it. Do you not have any evidence that is irrefutable? I didn't say that species mutations aren't possible. I'm asking to see some hard evidence of a completely new animal evolving from one that already exists. I don't believe such evidence exists. If it did then evolution would no longer be a theory.
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Old 09-07-2013, 01:22 AM #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE JESUS!!! View Post
I'm asking for proof so you explain it. Do you not have any evidence that is irrefutable? I didn't say that species mutations aren't possible. I'm asking to see some hard evidence of a completely new animal evolving from one that already exists. I don't believe such evidence exists. If it did then evolution would no longer be a theory.
growing bacteria over tens of thousands of generations have proven the theory of evolution true for a while now

animals will be impossible to study since ten thousand generations of humans would be 500,000 years and you know that
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:02 AM #69
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growing bacteria over tens of thousands of generations have proven the theory of evolution true for a while now

animals will be impossible to study since ten thousand generations of humans would be 500,000 years and you know that
Going by what you are said I'd come to the conclusion that the theory of evolution holds true for simple organisms like bacteria. But if you claim that it is impossible to study the evolution of humans then why should anyone believe it to be be true in regards to more complex organisms? And again you are just talking about mutations. I'm looking for proof of a new type of animal evolving from another. With the amount of different animals on the planet and the technology and modern excavating equipment available today, surely there is some concrete evidence to prove this theory without a shadow of a doubt.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:06 PM #70
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Originally Posted by I LOVE JESUS!!! View Post
I'm asking for proof so you explain it. Do you not have any evidence that is irrefutable? I didn't say that species mutations aren't possible. I'm asking to see some hard evidence of a completely new animal evolving from one that already exists. I don't believe such evidence exists. If it did then evolution would no longer be a theory.
The fact that you use the word "proof" when discussing scientific discoveries and theories is testament enough to show your blatant lack of understanding in the scientific field and/or community.

If you want some facts, here are a few.

There is more observable evidence to support the theory of evolution than there is to provide evidence for the Holocaust ever happening.

Over 99% of the scientific community (the community comprised of people who's sole purpose of endeavor in life is to understand the physical interactions in this universe) believe in the theory of evolution.

Having that said, these scientists are responsible for the computer you're using to type your messages, the house you're living in, he chair you sit on, the non-stick pan you've used to cook your food, the car you drive to school or work, etc. When you go to a grocery store and they scan your items at the checkout, you're following the scientific belief in the atomic theory. Have you ever seen an atom? Of course not. Neither have scientists. So why do you believe what's happening in that instance? Both your transactions and the theory of evolution show only the end result. You believe one, but not the other.

Fact is, you have little understanding of the topic at hand and it shows. Try doing some actual research because transitional fossils are there. Funny that you never replied to the part of my post about the tiktaalik, a blatantly obvious transitional fossil discovered that bridges the gap between fish and land-dwelling animals.

I'll leave you be though. You can't teach quantum physics to a sheep herder.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:29 PM #71
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
The fact that you use the word "proof" when discussing scientific discoveries and theories is testament enough to show your blatant lack of understanding in the scientific field and/or community.

If you want some facts, here are a few.

There is more observable evidence to support the theory of evolution than there is to provide evidence for the Holocaust ever happening.

Over 99% of the scientific community (the community comprised of people who's sole purpose of endeavor in life is to understand the physical interactions in this universe) believe in the theory of evolution.

Having that said, these scientists are responsible for the computer you're using to type your messages, the house you're living in, he chair you sit on, the non-stick pan you've used to cook your food, the car you drive to school or work, etc. When you go to a grocery store and they scan your items at the checkout, you're following the scientific belief in the atomic theory. Have you ever seen an atom? Of course not. Neither have scientists. So why do you believe what's happening in that instance? Both your transactions and the theory of evolution show only the end result. You believe one, but not the other.

Fact is, you have little understanding of the topic at hand and it shows. Try doing some actual research because transitional fossils are there. Funny that you never replied to the part of my post about the tiktaalik, a blatantly obvious transitional fossil discovered that bridges the gap between fish and land-dwelling animals.

I'll leave you be though. You can't teach quantum physics to a sheep herder.
You can try to attack me personally all you want. It's irrelevant. All I asked you for is to prove, without a shadow of doubt, that the theory of evolution is true.

Perhaps someone with a more mature and less insecure mindset can answer the question?
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:48 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE JESUS!!! View Post
You can try to attack me personally all you want. It's irrelevant. All I asked you for is to prove, without a shadow of doubt, that the theory of evolution is true.

Perhaps someone with a more mature and less insecure mindset can answer the question?
Nobody can prove it without a shadow of a doubt. That was Treghc's entire point, which you apparently missed.

Out of curiosity, which Bible do you use?
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:46 PM #73
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Originally Posted by I LOVE JESUS!!! View Post
You can try to attack me personally all you want. It's irrelevant. All I asked you for is to prove, without a shadow of doubt, that the theory of evolution is true.

Perhaps someone with a more mature and less insecure mindset can answer the question?
I'm not attacking you personally. I'm attacking your credibility and knowledge of the subject you are so adamantly trying to be an authority of.

Look at you, still going on about proof without a shadow of a doubt. Science does not do these things. This is science 101 knowledge; you cannot say anything is absolutely true. This is also the greatest achievement of the scientific process. Science stays open to change and correcting itself simply because nothing is ever said to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

In short, you're looking for something in science which doesn't actually exist within science. Because of this, your knowledge of the subject you are attempting to challenge is shown to be rather rudimentary and you hold no credibility for your argument.

Using the analogy I did before, if a secluded sheep herder were to tell me the many properties, characteristics and fields of study of quantum mechanics is wrong, I would not partake in a conversation with said sheep herder, for he/she obviously has not spent time studying the project. In this case, you are the sheep herder.

That may seem like a personal attack, but it's not. If it upsets you, you can take comfort in knowing I don't care. Your feelings don't change your argument or knowledge of said argument.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:00 PM #74
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Going by what you are said I'd come to the conclusion that the theory of evolution holds true for simple organisms like bacteria. But if you claim that it is impossible to study the evolution of humans then why should anyone believe it to be be true in regards to more complex organisms?
Because all "complex organisms" are made up of "simple organisms." You are not even you. What you perceive as "you" is simply a collection of what you call "simple organisms."

In evolution, species don't become other species - not outright anyway. Mutations, over time, can give rise to off-shoot species. You seem to be under the impression that evolution can cause one species to stop being what they are, and all of the sudden become something else. This is simply not the way it works.
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:41 AM #75
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Nobody can prove it without a shadow of a doubt.
Now I'm sure that the people in this thread who don't believe in God will say the exact same thing about creationism. That it can't be proven. Thus rendering this thread as useless. That's all I was after.



Now in response to Treghc, I'm not sure how you came to be a moderator being so angry but you have repeatedly insinuated a lot of falsities into what I posted. I was simply asking a question which Umami had no problem answering. I never stated anything about what I believe.



To answer Umami's question, I use MacSword. It's a free & open-source application for the research and study of the bible on the Mac. You can read and browse many different bible translations in different languages and also read devotionals, commentaries, dictionaries and lexicons and more covering over 200 texts which can be downloaded from the Sword Project website.
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Old 09-08-2013, 02:50 AM #76
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Now I'm sure that the people in this thread who don't believe in God will say the exact same thing about creationism.
What many people classify as "creationism" can't be proven at all. The big issue is that there is no set definition. It ranges from young Earth 7 day biblical literalists, all the way to Theistic Evolution (evolution exactly as science has observed, as a creation of God, with God guiding it to various degrees, which is my personal belief), and everything inbetween.

Creationism is NOT the opposite of evolution. The opposite of creationism is "random creation without guidance". The opposite of evolution is "things never change". They have nothing to do with each other, and should NEVER be compared to one another.

Things change. Often. And historically things have changed a lot. Fish beget amphibians. Amphibians beget reptiles. Reptiles beget Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs beget birds. Heck, they say a chicken is a direct descendant of a velociraptor, and then go and find fossils of Archaeopteryx which from it's features can be described as a dang Veloci-chicken, well that's proof enough for me.
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Old 09-08-2013, 03:27 AM #77
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What many people classify as "creationism" can't be proven at all. The big issue is that there is no set definition. It ranges from young Earth 7 day biblical literalists, all the way to Theistic Evolution (evolution exactly as science has observed, as a creation of God, with God guiding it to various degrees, which is my personal belief), and everything inbetween.

Creationism is NOT the opposite of evolution. The opposite of creationism is "random creation without guidance". The opposite of evolution is "things never change". They have nothing to do with each other, and should NEVER be compared to one another.

Things change. Often. And historically things have changed a lot. Fish beget amphibians. Amphibians beget reptiles. Reptiles beget Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs beget birds. Heck, they say a chicken is a direct descendant of a velociraptor, and then go and find fossils of Archaeopteryx which from it's features can be described as a dang Veloci-chicken, well that's proof enough for me.
I wasn't referring to any "set definition". I was simply speaking generally in reference to the implication of creationism vs evolution in the thread title.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:11 AM #78
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I wasn't referring to any "set definition". I was simply speaking generally in reference to the implication of creationism vs evolution in the thread title.
You MUST always have a set definition in a discussion, or else there's nothing to discuss. In a scientific discussion you need to think like a scientist. To take part in the discussion is to say "I am a scientist". And a scientist who doesn't think scientifically is a poor scientist.

And as I've already shown the implication of the thread title is an invalid comparison of two unrelated topics.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:35 AM #79
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You MUST always have a set definition in a discussion.
A lot of people don't understand this.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:41 AM #80
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You MUST always have a set definition in a discussion, or else there's nothing to discuss. In a scientific discussion you need to think like a scientist. To take part in the discussion is to say "I am a scientist". And a scientist who doesn't think scientifically is a poor scientist.

And as I've already shown the implication of the thread title is an invalid comparison of two unrelated topics.
I disagree. This isn't a "scientific discussion". It's a vs. thread with emphasis on a video that is obviously biased in favor of creationism.
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:10 AM #81
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The discussions seem to have some what drifted away from my original post in regards to the video...

Hopefully everyone actually took the time to watch the video? biased or not... i was intrigued to read responses to the actual video that was posted, and hoped to have seen discussions hitting on some of the questions that were asked within the video.

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Old 09-09-2013, 04:27 AM #82
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i found this.. what are your thoughts?

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It does not take much effort to demonstrate that evolution is not science but religion. Science, of course, involves observation, using one or more of our five senses (taste, sight, smell, hearing, touch) to gain knowledge about the world, and to be able to repeat the observations. Naturally, one can only observe what exists in the present. It is an easy task to understand that no scientist was present over the suggested millions of years to witness the supposed evolutionary progression of life from the simple to the complex. No living scientist was there to observe the first life forming in some primeval sea. No living scientist was there to observe the big bang that is supposed to have occurred 10 or 20 billion years ago, nor the supposed formation of the earth 4.5 billion years ago (or even 10,000 years ago!). No scientist was there—no human witness was there to see these events occurring. They certainly cannot be repeated today.

All the evidence a scientist has exists only in the present. All the fossils, the living animals and plants, the world, the universe—in fact, everything—exists now, in the present. The average person (including most students) is not taught that scientists have only the present and cannot deal directly with the past. Evolution is a belief system about the past based on the words of men who were not there, but who are trying to explain how all the evidence of the present (that is, fossils, animals, and plants, etc.) originated.
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Webster’s Dictionary defines religion as follows: “Cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.” Surely, this is an apt description of evolution. Evolution is a belief system—a religion!

It only takes common sense to understand that one does not dig up an “age of the dinosaurs” supposedly existing 70–200 million years ago. One digs up dead dinosaurs that exist now, not millions of years ago.

Fossil bones do not come with little labels attached telling you how old they are. Nor do fossils have photographs with them telling you what the animals looked like as they roamed the earth long ago....
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:02 PM #83
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i found this.. what are your thoughts?
To step back and make this more broad (my training is in physics, not biology), you can't actually observe anything that goes on in quantum physics. It's too small. You make inferences and create a theory based on observable evidence. Similarly, you don't actually observe most things that occur on galactic scales. They happen too slowly. Stars and galaxies form over millions or billions of years.

What scientists do is collect evidence, create theories from said evidence, and then make predictions from those theories. In general, the idea is more evidence makes stronger, more predictive theories, and the closer those theories are to reality the stronger their predictive power. If a theory is unable to make predictions, most scientists would call it a "weak" theory. Predictive power is essential. The theory of evolution and its close affiliate genetics is extremely powerful. We can make very strong predictions using modern biology (which is founded on evolutionary theory).

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you think we got here. If you want to say we were created and now evolve, nobody can tell you otherwise in absolute terms. What we know for certain, in present day is using this particular model of the past gives us very powerful tools to make modern day predictions and develop undeniably powerful technologies.

For me personally, there is no reason or evidence to believe the rules suddenly changed at some point in history so it's enough to say that's how it has always been. You're welcome to think differently, but you cannot deny the present day explanatory and predictive power of evolution. That's how (some) creationists get labeled as denialists.
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Old 09-09-2013, 02:11 PM #84
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What is strange to me is the promotion of M theory when it has no predictive power whatsoever and is essentially useless as science.
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