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Old 08-28-2013, 12:37 PM #43
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The evidence is all around us, look at a painting you know there was a painter look at a building you know there was a builder.
What?
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:41 PM #44
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Look at things made by humans... they were made by humans!

Wonderful evidence.



Can you provide me any evidence of a species evolving in to another species, then back to the original?

You do understand the term common ancestor, right?
The resolution to this problem is that things proceed from higher to lower. Humans and apes have a common ancestor, however the order is inverted. What with entropy and all thar. Anyway, this isnt my belief, just something "for fun".
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:40 PM #45
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I'm having trouble grasping what you're trying to say.

I think you need more alcohol.
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:51 PM #46
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Life is generally seen as being a process of development from simple forms to complex forms. Apes then humans as opposed to humans then apes. The way to resolve Lampoons problem of turning humans into apes is the view that apes are a lower form and that the chain of life in general proceeds from higher forms to lower forms. This view would at least make Lampoons position appear logical, although the truth of the matter is clearly debatable. I mentioned entropy because systems tend to become less complex as the energy running through them is lost.

Just a fun thought to entertain.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:44 PM #47
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Life is generally seen as being a process of development from simple forms to complex forms. Apes then humans as opposed to humans then apes. The way to resolve Lampoons problem of turning humans into apes is the view that apes are a lower form and that the chain of life in general proceeds from higher forms to lower forms. This view would at least make Lampoons position appear logical, although the truth of the matter is clearly debatable. I mentioned entropy because systems tend to become less complex as the energy running through them is lost.

Just a fun thought to entertain.
Ah. Yes. I see.

Thing is, every single piece of evidence which supports the idea of evolution denies that train of thought. Organisms that have been simple in design and survived, stayed simple. Organisms that grew in complexity to overtake the simple ones, keep that complexity, otherwise they lose out to the more simple organisms. This is, of course, a very all-encompassing statement, which probably shouldn't be made for a subject as intricate as the theory of evolution.

Also, the post wasn't meant to be as rhetorical as it seems. I had my reasoning for my wording and was hoping for a reply as to try and understand his knowledge of the theory of evolution. I doubt he'll comply though.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:49 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Life is generally seen as being a process of development from simple forms to complex forms. Apes then humans as opposed to humans then apes. The way to resolve Lampoons problem of turning humans into apes is the view that apes are a lower form and that the chain of life in general proceeds from higher forms to lower forms. This view would at least make Lampoons position appear logical, although the truth of the matter is clearly debatable. I mentioned entropy because systems tend to become less complex as the energy running through them is lost.

Just a fun thought to entertain.
You should study entropy a little more before bandying about the pop-science definition.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:02 AM #49
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Ah. Yes. I see.

Thing is, every single piece of evidence which supports the idea of evolution denies that train of thought. Organisms that have been simple in design and survived, stayed simple. Organisms that grew in complexity to overtake the simple ones, keep that complexity, otherwise they lose out to the more simple organisms. This is, of course, a very all-encompassing statement, which probably shouldn't be made for a subject as intricate as the theory of evolution.

Also, the post wasn't meant to be as rhetorical as it seems. I had my reasoning for my wording and was hoping for a reply as to try and understand his knowledge of the theory of evolution. I doubt he'll comply though.
He won't give you anything useful. The origins of the cosmos and the human race are irrelevant to me. It's better to have any answer than no answer at all. One less thing to think about. Id rather accept that gnomes did it and we must place them in our yards as both homage and observation than some endless chain of causality brain glitch.

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You should study entropy a little more before bandying about the pop-science definition.
Admittedly I mixed it with an over simplification of another law whose name I can never remember. Damnit Umami I'm a doctor not a scientist.

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Old 08-29-2013, 10:03 AM #50
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Conceivably, one could evolve back to an earlier model but the gene pool would reflect the trail of genes. It would take something like major environmental changes etc. that would favor the traits of the earlier models.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:49 AM #51
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Conceivably, one could evolve back to an earlier model but the gene pool would reflect the trail of genes. It would take something like major environmental changes etc. that would favor the traits of the earlier models.
There is some evidence that has led some to believe that certain species of whales have previously evolved to become land-dwelling animals only to evolve back to living their lives in the water.

Part of the reason why I asked the question I did earlier; to see if Lampoon had actually done any research on the subject. Thing is though, this doesn't mean that a sperm whale evolved to be an elephant-like creature, then evolved back in to a sperm whale. The second iteration of whale species would still be quite a bit different from the first one.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:14 PM #52
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A thought on evolution and entropy.

In the long run, evolution does tend towards entropy, but it's not visible looking at a single species, you have to look at all species together as a whole. As new species evolve some will become advanced enough to be better adapted at more than one environment at a time, and drive the old more specialized species to extinction. Take old Darwin's finches (really simplified of course). Some have pointy beaks for pecking through fruit, others had large blunt beaks for breaking seeds. Say a new species evolves that can eat both fruit and seeds, it would thrive and deprive the earlier species of food, reducing the number of species overall.

Now take good old Homo Sapiens. Hot desert to frozen tundra, not a problem. If something is edible, we eat it, if it's not we'll cook it until it is. Heck, if it's a rock we won't eat it, but we'll find a way to consume it some other way. How many species have gone extinct from having the misfortune of being in the same environment as us? All leading to entropy in the long run.
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Old 09-05-2013, 03:38 AM #53
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A thought on evolution and entropy.

In the long run, evolution does tend towards entropy, but it's not visible looking at a single species, you have to look at all species together as a whole. As new species evolve some will become advanced enough to be better adapted at more than one environment at a time, and drive the old more specialized species to extinction. Take old Darwin's finches (really simplified of course). Some have pointy beaks for pecking through fruit, others had large blunt beaks for breaking seeds. Say a new species evolves that can eat both fruit and seeds, it would thrive and deprive the earlier species of food, reducing the number of species overall.

Now take good old Homo Sapiens. Hot desert to frozen tundra, not a problem. If something is edible, we eat it, if it's not we'll cook it until it is. Heck, if it's a rock we won't eat it, but we'll find a way to consume it some other way. How many species have gone extinct from having the misfortune of being in the same environment as us? All leading to entropy in the long run.
Can you give me a specific example of one species evolving into another?
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:41 PM #54
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Can you give me a specific example of one species evolving into another?
http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BIO48/23.Cases.HTML

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African cichlid fishes are another remarkable case of "explosive speciation" (the Hawaiian Drosophila of the fish world). Geology and geography again plays an important role. African rift lakes: great fresh-water lakes in east Africa. Formed recently: < 1 million years old. Lake Victoria colonized by one (??) founder 200,000 years ago(??) now has ~ 200 species of fish!. Recent study (Meyer et al. 1990, Nature vol. 347, pg. 550 and see pg. 512) used mitochondrial DNA to show that the species in the lake are indeed monophyletic and that there is very little sequence divergence between species: confirms short time span. But there has been remarkable evolution of morphological, ecological and behavioral variation in these fish: algae grazers, snail crushers, plankton feeders, paedophages (clamp onto the mouth of a fish brooding her young in her mouth and force her to spit out here young into the mouth of the attacker), one fish (in Lake Malawi) plucks the eyes out of other fish as food. All this diversity in 200,000 years with very little genetic differentiation.
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Hawaiian Drosophila show remarkable patterns of colonization and speciation. At least 700 species of Drosophilids on Hawaiian islands. Not just typical little fruit flies either: large body size, dramatic "picture wing" species, some with "hammer-head" shaped heads. Banding patterns of polytene chromosomes allows phylogeny reconstruction: these and other data show that patterns of colonization are from older to younger islands (flies on Hawaii are derived from ancestors on Maui). Most species are found only on one island (high levels of endemism; more later in Biogeography). This implies that most new colonization events have lead to speciation events! This observation lead Hampton Carson to propose the founder-flush model of speciation.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:04 PM #55
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If you want to watch evolution in action, start reading up/watching studies about evolutionary microbiology. Life that only lasts mere hours to days speeds up the evolutionary process very quickly and we've witnessed E. Coli as well as other bacteria evolve right before our very eyes.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:34 PM #56
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None of what either of you posted is concrete evidence of a species evolving into a completely new species . What you posted is simply mutation of the same species. I want solid evidence. Not something someone typed and posted on the internet. Do you not have any legitimate fossil records to prove your theory?
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:42 PM #57
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What i showed you were different species. they have distinctly different characteristics, and 2 different types could not mate and produce a fertile offspring. If that isn't evidence of 2 different species, then your definition of a species isn't the same as biology's

You want fossils?











Also the link I posted is from Brown University, you know, that Ivy League school.

Here is a history of the evolution of corn from teosinte, which is not corn, into maize, which is corn.
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/corn/







Evolution of broccoli, cauliflower, brusselsprouts, cabbage, collard greens, rutabaga, turnips, kale, and many other vegetables you eat on a daily basis. They all evolved from the wild mustard plant.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_30

You can't really tell us that you believe kale is the same species as broccoli can you?
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:48 PM #58
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Can you give me a specific example of one species evolving into another?
You don't seem to have a firm grasp of the concept. It's not like a switch gets thrown and suddenly "fish" gives birth to "amphibian". It doesn't work like that.

Take the following image (it's a borrowed link, let me know if it goes all red X)


Can you tell me the EXACT point where the color stops being Blue and starts being Red?

The color is, well, evolving from one shade to another. A gradual shift in hue, spending time on a transitional color (purple).

Species evolution does this as well of course. Lets take a nice famous example, Archaeopteryx...


Or to flesh out the fossil a bit...


So plenty of parts that belong to reptiles/dinosaurs (theropods to be precise), but other parts clearly of a bird. Before this species others that were more dinosaur and less bird, and after this species were others that were more bird and less dino, until we get to modern birds.

All glorious aspects of God's work. I'm rather offended you're denying one of His greatest creations. A self perpetuating and self correcting system of species propagation, absolutely brilliant.
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Old 09-06-2013, 02:25 AM #59
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It's going to take more than some hoaky theories and a few mocked up bird pictures to convince me. That pic doesn't definitively prove evolution to be true. There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind. If it was true there would be evidence to support it. Scientists have had 150+ years since Darwin snookered academia to dig up some hard evidence. Yet all you can come up with is a picture of an early chicken?

As far as your corn theory goes, it's quite obvious to me that it didn't evolve at all. It says in plain English that modern corn was CREATED by superior beings. In this case the superior being obviously is humans.


Here's one to think about.

"There is no doubt that as far as his macroevolutionary claims were concerned Darwin's central problem in the Origin lay in the fact that he had absolutely no direct empirical evidence in the existence of clear-cut intermediates that evolution on a major scale had ever occurred and that any of the major divisions of nature had been crossed gradually through a sequence of transitional forms." - Michael Denton from his book - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:36 AM #60
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You guy can't seriously be falling for the troll.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:33 AM #61
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It's going to take more than some hoaky theories and a few mocked up bird pictures to convince me.
More physical evidence than YOUR theory has. And no, I don't expect you are convinceable. It is a matter of faith, not fact for you. I'm OK with that. Both is only our understanding of the past - history.

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It says in plain English that modern corn was CREATED by superior beings. In this case the superior being obviously is humans.

Wasn't it Arabic and Hebrew? NOT English which was clearly a "Revisionist" version of the original religious texts? They are still debating the original text meanings in the original languages.

The Bible and related documents have 'evolved' as well. How many "species" of the Bible are there now? Old Test, New Test, King James, and ??????

SOooooooo..... I guess it is fair to say,

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It's going to take more than some hoaky theories and a few revised, interpreted, translated versions of religious texts to convince me that your beliefs are actually valid.
Seems science AND religion changes its mind as it goes along. There is no "absolute" understanding of either. I think the journey is what is important and not the destination.

You have to remember that the definition of a "new species" is pretty much an arbitray set of rules made up by man. A product of a committee some time. A bird with different colored feathers or different shaped beak is a new species but a Black, Asian, and Caucasian is not. Pretty arbitrary set of rules created by man if you ask me.

How much does one species have to change its physical or genetic makeup to be call a 'new species'. How much TIME has to pass to qualify?

It gets back to one of my questions. What things do we possess that makes HUMANS - human and not just another animal.

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In this case the superior being obviously is humans.
That is so self serving and conceited. Something only MAN would say.

What IS so special about us? How are we superior?
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:58 AM #62
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Every intelligent species with the appendiges to make good use of it will always be superior to the rest of life present on our floating rock. Man is just one in a chain. Who knows what the next will be, its at least a few million years out.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:02 AM #63
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Wait... some people in 2013 don't believe that things evolve over time...?

I'm not an athiest but I know evolution does happen, I've even heard priests acknowledge it.
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