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Old 07-09-2013, 10:28 AM #1
Nahib_Stilgar
 
 
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What defines 'Milsim'

Warning, this is a bit of a vent but I am going to try and be as objective as I can. Looking for input as well.

There is a Magfed/tac cap 'Milsim' game taking place close by me that I and many of my team mates would love to attend. However the rules have stated that the only pumps allowed at the event are 1) a DSG, 2) Hammer 7 and 3) Empire Trracer. I have just finished pleading my case to the orginizers to allow SC pumps, and pumps with 10rnd stick feeds...which was denied as they "do not fit the limmited ammo and 'Milsim' feel of the event."

OK...

So, I started to think. What exactly is 'Milsim'?

I came up with a few thoughts.

1) All out Milsim:
Markers must attempt to replicate existing firearms as closely as possible...so Magfed only...with DSGs and maybe DRVs? TPX and T8/9s...
ie, No Cyclone feeds, no ripclips, no hoppers, no stick feeds, no spring feeds...
Players would then attempt to kit themselve out in gear replicating warfighters...
Movement controled by a chain of command...

2) Modified Milsim?
Markers try to replicate existing firearms? but this time Cyclones, ripclips with tac caps are OK...
Players allowed to use pod packs to fill the tac caps...
potential for players to do their own thing as long as they are attempting to achive their teams mission?

3) Milsim in Spirit?
Use limited ammo markers, dark colours maybe? This would allow all those mentioned above but also include pumps and electros using 50rnd hoppers, stick feeds...
Wear whatever works,
Play how you want for your team


My issue is I LOVE pump, and I really enjoy the Milsim game but I don't want to be forced to use a select number of pumps that don't fit my style due to a)cost, b) ergonomics c) requirement for a second complete kit load out (mag fed)...

I feel that SC pumps and stick feeds are similar to Mag fed, in they are very limited ammo, and require a player to 'reload' repeatedly... Because of this I don't see how they don't fit the "Milsim" feel in the spirit of the sense.


So...My question(s) What makes up the Spirit of Milsim? Look or Play style? Rails? Or am I missing something totally fundamental here?
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:57 AM #2
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I believe milsim is defined by the look of the gun and character. I believe that the setup I used (pictured below) is milsim.

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Old 07-09-2013, 11:10 AM #3
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It seems like there is a real divide here. To some people, Milsim means the look of the gun and has little to do with capacity. To me, it has always meant the look and limited paint.

I have never considered stock class guns to be Milsim at all, but I can see how an event organizer would allow them in order to get enough people to play an event so it is fun for everyone. I can even see them telling people to camo tape bright colored pumps to keep the spirit of the game alive.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:15 PM #4
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Originally Posted by TheEnd004500 View Post
I believe milsim is defined by the look of the gun and character. I believe that the setup I used (pictured below) is milsim.


I can totally buy Look and Character. Personally I am not a fan of the 200rnd hopper...I don't think it fits on a gun replicating a firearm that normally only uses 30rnd mags.

My issue is that if the Massive hopper can be over looked...why can't a pump handle?

My pictoral response



Quote:
Originally Posted by John View Post
It seems like there is a real divide here. To some people, Milsim means the look of the gun and has little to do with capacity. To me, it has always meant the look and limited paint.

I have never considered stock class guns to be Milsim at all, but I can see how an event organizer would allow them in order to get enough people to play an event so it is fun for everyone. I can even see them telling people to camo tape bright colored pumps to keep the spirit of the game alive.
I agree, look + Limited paint works for me. As the picture above shows, I have found what I believe to be a balance between the two...

I think SC if done right can be argued as milsim.



Not going to argue that brightly coloured guns don't fit. I agree on that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:57 PM #5
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See... That's why I've never thought paintball fits well with milsim, the guns fall short.

I guess it comes down to how important are realistic looking and functioning (magazines and such) guns to being "mil-sim"?

Personally, and I'm not a milsim guy so take this for what it's worth, but I'd consider the guns to be a pretty big part of what defines "milsim". If you leave the realistic looking+functioning guns behind, then you're just guys running around the woods in camo playing paintball. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:18 PM #6
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To me, milsim is about the tactics, objectives, and limited paint. We ran a game called Ghost Recon once where we gave a small squad of operatives some objectives, armed them with limited ammo, and selected guards also with limited ammo, and ran the game. It was a blast.
Milsim can also be about the markers, I guess. I have a milsim A5 that looks like an M4, but I use it with a Tac-Cap and mostly just run it all the time for fun and not just milsim games.
I dunno...
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:43 PM #7
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Looks, or Gameplay.

I've always thought that milsim is much more about the gameplay. Limited paint, preferably magfed, set player roles (medics, engineers, heavies, FS for snipers etc.), and scenarios that are at least partly based on potential real world situations. If you can look the part that's a bonus but ultimately doesn't affect the scenario that much.

The question is do you want to look like you're simulating the military, or actually simulate the military? If it's primarily about looks then airsoft is better at that form of milsim so you may as well switch. If it's about gameplay then we can make a good case for paintball with our FS rounds and better hit detection etc.

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Old 07-09-2013, 11:43 PM #8
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I totally understand the appeal of paintball guns that look more like actual firearms, but still have all the usual paintball gun features (big hopper, big air tank, etc). Ease of loading, high capacity, but looking like something that should be in a gun fight and not an interstellar marital aid. I get that, heck I'll encourage it.

But is it "milsim" in the strictest sense, or should it be it's own category? I've heard some milsim purists refer to games where the majority of players are using military styled full capacity paintball guns as "Tactical", instead of Milsim. Others I've heard have lumped it into the "Scenario" category. I'd be ok with either.

Though that does tend to lump things with "speedball guns with rails bolted to them", which could be a category all to itself.



All in all interesting to see people actually thinking about the differences in gun aesthetics all of a sudden. When I pointed out that milsim, guns with hoppers with a military look, and normal guns with a few rails bolted on where completely separate categories a few years back nearly everyone screamed at me that ANYTHING that wasn't pure "speedball" had to fall under the milsim category. Good to see the change.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:54 AM #9
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Originally Posted by Cauldronborn66 View Post
See... That's why I've never thought paintball fits well with milsim, the guns fall short.

I guess it comes down to how important are realistic looking and functioning (magazines and such) guns to being "mil-sim"?

Personally, and I'm not a milsim guy so take this for what it's worth, but I'd consider the guns to be a pretty big part of what defines "milsim". If you leave the realistic looking+functioning guns behind, then you're just guys running around the woods in camo playing paintball. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I agree, Paintball guns don't seem the best platform for Milsim...thats why I am less conserned with the 'look' of the gun and more about the play mentality.

I don't consider myself to be a 'Milsim' guy either. I play for fun all over, but I do tend to play more woods ball and scenario than anything and would like to be able to attend a 'milsim' event on occasion.

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Originally Posted by 2nwyka View Post
To me, milsim is about the tactics, objectives, and limited paint. We ran a game called Ghost Recon once where we gave a small squad of operatives some objectives, armed them with limited ammo, and selected guards also with limited ammo, and ran the game. It was a blast.
Milsim can also be about the markers, I guess. I have a milsim A5 that looks like an M4, but I use it with a Tac-Cap and mostly just run it all the time for fun and not just milsim games.
I dunno...
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I think thats bang on. Limited paint and tactics, right there with you! This leaves it open for the player to find the tools that work best for them to meet the aim...kinda sounds like what the military does eh?

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Looks, or Gameplay.

I've always thought that milsim is much more about the gameplay. Limited paint, preferably magfed, set player roles (medics, engineers, heavies, FS for snipers etc.), and scenarios that are at least partly based on potential real world situations. If you can look the part that's a bonus but ultimately doesn't affect the scenario that much.

The question is do you want to look like you're simulating the military, or actually simulate the military? If it's primarily about looks then airsoft is better at that form of milsim so you may as well switch. If it's about gameplay then we can make a good case for paintball with our FS rounds and better hit detection etc.
Agreed on both points. And as stated above, paintball guns don't really fit the bill so I would rather focus on the game than the gun.

Airsoft is a far better forum for true all out 'MilSim' in both Look, form, function, and gameplay.

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I totally understand the appeal of paintball guns that look more like actual firearms, but still have all the usual paintball gun features (big hopper, big air tank, etc). Ease of loading, high capacity, but looking like something that should be in a gun fight and not an interstellar marital aid. I get that, heck I'll encourage it.

But is it "milsim" in the strictest sense, or should it be it's own category? I've heard some milsim purists refer to games where the majority of players are using military styled full capacity paintball guns as "Tactical", instead of Milsim. Others I've heard have lumped it into the "Scenario" category. I'd be ok with either.

Though that does tend to lump things with "speedball guns with rails bolted to them", which could be a category all to itself.


All in all interesting to see people actually thinking about the differences in gun aesthetics all of a sudden. When I pointed out that milsim, guns with hoppers with a military look, and normal guns with a few rails bolted on where completely separate categories a few years back nearly everyone screamed at me that ANYTHING that wasn't pure "speedball" had to fall under the milsim category. Good to see the change.

Good points, I agree that people want to play with high capacity paint and I would also argue that regardless of the marker they use it would not really be 'Milsim'.

The terms 'Tactical' and 'Scenario' seem to fit the bill much better, I like these ideas and this is what I was hoping would fall out of my querey! So thank you!

I have no issue with someone wanting to use an electro in the woods or in a scenario...why not, it makes a lot of sense. They can still fit the 'feel' or 'Spirit' of the game being played.


I do feel that paintball is begining to open up more. players seem to be more willing to accept different formats and sub variations inside the more classical lines...I hope it continues. But I do think that players and orginizers need to keep in mind that not everyone wants to play the same way and that they can't have their cake and eat it too some times...

What I mean by that is, Yes it is possible to have a Pure Milsim game...but dont expect huge numbers. If you want the numbers...the game will have to be opened up and relaxed a bit to attract people who will play slightly differently...

That make sense to anyone else
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:38 PM #10
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I just hope that magfed paintball guns become a little cheaper so that it can grow to be an insanely huge part of paintball.

I think the reason a lot of paintballers, who like the realistic looking paintball guns, play because they want to replicate their favorite shooter games. And in order to replicate it to the max, changing mags is an aspect that would be needed.

So that's why I believe that magfed is going to grow to be an insanely huge part of paintball, if they can lower that price down. It's a fairly new concept to the world of paintball, and that's why it's so expensive right now. Everything is expensive at first. Unless it's made by Apple.

To me, playing paintball is all about having the best time. When I play, even in intense games, if I lose, I still have a good time. Although striving to win is always a good thing.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:18 PM #11
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Airsoft is a far better forum for true all out 'MilSim' in both Look, form, function, and gameplay.
This is generally the case at an airsoft milsim game using lo-cap mags, but it doesn't *have to* be this way. Obviously paintball can't compete in terms of accurate looks, but leaving that aside if we were to run a paintball game with the aim of being as milsim as possible tactically and in terms of gameplay there is no reason why paintball can't be as good or better especially in CQB.

That said the most milsim format is probably RAM .43 cal shooting powderballs. Just a shame the RAM markers are so poorly designed and high workload - loading individual shells is one aspect of milsim I can do without.

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Old 07-12-2013, 12:07 AM #12
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MilSim is in transition. I've been a MilSim guy since 2004...before there was the term MilSim. At that time, it came down to a marker that resembled a real gun. Armotech (later Warsensor and Ariakon as competitors...long story) had the WS-65 that resembled a mag-less M4/AR-15 that cocked like a 98 Custom. The Warsensor WS-66 corrected these issues adding a dummy mag and a top cocking handle. This is what I bought in 2004...
(Ignore the Step 1...this image was for a guide I did on tearing down the marker.)

This marker even used a real AR-15 stock wrench to take off the stock.

Of course the Tippman A-5 was a very good representation of an MP5:
MP5:


A-5 with faux mag and 3" barrel:


By 2008 this was the group of markers I played with:


By all accounts and by just about anyone's standard, this was MilSim. I still ran a standard hopper but unless you went with a 50 round gravety feed hopper (which was really hard to find at the time), this was about your only option. For OK D-Day 2006 I took the big "Barrett" and turned it into an Anti-Tank gun by cutting down a 10 round tube and fitting it into the powerfeed so that the gun only held 5 rounds in the tube plus one in the chamber. Obviously it was impossible to hold your own in a firefight like that because no one else played with limited paint.

In addition I ran a tac vest, radio gear, always wore fatigues and combat boots and played in more of a tactical style when possible. However, I was part of a small minority.

Four things have changed all that.

1. Airsoft. I first remember about hearing about airsoft in the late 90s but it didn't take hold very quickly. By 2006 you were seeing more of it but it was still a very small hobby. Those that played though focused on the realism that airsoft provided. Now you loaded rounds with magazines, you had no big air tank or pods of paint to deal with, and the guns were far more accurate at far longer ranges.

2. A Bad Ecconomy. The ecconomy tanked in 2008 and paintball had risen to the point where people were buying 4-7 cases of paint for a Saturday of paintball and paintball stores had multiple guns on their walls that were well over $800. Then here was Airsoft. A similar game who's guns ran about the same as a decent paintball gun, required no air fill costs, and who's ammo ran $15 for 5000 rounds vs paintballs $65 for 2000 rounds. Airsoft became a far more affordable option to paintball almost overnight and, in order to fight rising costs, "limited paint" paintball games such as hopper ball and tac cap only games begin to gain ground in paintball.

3. Call of Duty. This videogame brought playing soldier into the living room with far more reality than our simple immaginations ever did for us as kids. Now, so long as you had a game console and this game you could choose from a ton of different weapons, got use to the idea of "Changing Mag!" and the different forms of tac vest, tactical thinking, and tactical play.

4. Mag Fed Paintball guns. Companies begin to produce magazine fed paintball guns that are reliable, affordable, and practical. Those that may play airsoft or be big COD fans but have always enjoyed paintball now have markers that offer them little compromise when it comes to playing how they want to play.

Now we're seeing paintball starting to transform and produce more markers that can use mags to hold paint rather than hoppers. First Strike rounds have contributed to this trend as well so now people are equating MilSim more from just limited paint to MagFed.

So what originally would have been considered MilSim (my hopper fed M-4 and MP5 look-a-likes) may not be allowed into a MilSim game because of their hoppers. As we get more Mag Fed options coming into the market the more and more the line of "MilSim" will shift towards "Mag Fed Only" because you will be able to get full games of players running nothing but magazine fed markers...which was the whole point of "MilSim" to begin with...

...to simulate the military experiance as much as possible in the limited world of Paintball.

Last edited by Robotech : 07-12-2013 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:20 AM #13
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Nice!

So you believe that Milsim is in a transitional period from lookalikeish markers with full hoppers to Magfed only, Limited paint games?

I can see this trend growing. My friends and I have been slowly converting people to the limited paint style of play. Pumps and semis with 50rnd hoppers, stick feeds, spring feeds...


I find that Magfed is a fantastic idea right now, and is becoming increasingly attractive as more magfed markers come out. I do think that to make the style of play really take off, companies will have to work to develop Lighter, Modular platforms and universal, CHEAP mags!

Dmags seem to be working...I hope they help bring more players to the magfed game.



If that eventually does happen I can actually see the viability in a Large Magfed only scenario...But I don't think we are there yet.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:38 AM #14
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One interesting thing with large scenarios is how you deal with heavies. There are one or two box mags out there but for the most part to play a heavy you still are best with a hopper. At least for now imo magfed games should allow hoppers for designated heavy players and even speedball gats - assuming you're more about gameplay than looks realism.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:16 PM #15
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Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar View Post
If that eventually does happen I can actually see the viability in a Large Magfed only scenario...But I don't think we are there yet.
No, not there yet. That's for certain. But we can see where it's going so far. I mean Dye didn't have a single "woodsball" marker and the first thing they come out with is a magfed. Kingman has magfed markers at more than reasonable prices and there are a plethora of other companies that have magfed markers that fall somewhere in between these two price points. Then on top of that companies are releasing conversion kits to make existing markers magfed.

It will all come down to how these markers are received by the general paintball community. I don't see magfed being big with tournament types but rec and woodsball players will be the ones that make or break the MagFed segment. Still fairly early but we'll see where this goes. Right now though, anything that stunts or retards that growth such as limiting games to mag fed only too soon (rather than allowing limited paint options too) will hurt the growth more than help it.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:26 PM #16
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No, not there yet. That's for certain. But we can see where it's going so far. I mean Dye didn't have a single "woodsball" marker and the first thing they come out with is a magfed. Kingman has magfed markers at more than reasonable prices and there are a plethora of other companies that have magfed markers that fall somewhere in between these two price points. Then on top of that companies are releasing conversion kits to make existing markers magfed.

It will all come down to how these markers are received by the general paintball community. I don't see magfed being big with tournament types but rec and woodsball players will be the ones that make or break the MagFed segment. Still fairly early but we'll see where this goes. Right now though, anything that stunts or retards that growth such as limiting games to mag fed only too soon (rather than allowing limited paint options too) will hurt the growth more than help it.
Thank you! That is what I was thinking!
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:48 PM #17
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This was the closest I could come to MagFed back in 2004. This is how I ran my "Barrett" the first time I used it as an Anti-Tank gun for Night of the Catman at Fort Ord in CA.



You can see the modified powerfeed better in this picture.



The cut down 10 round would hold 5 rounds plus the one in the breach.

But you're right in that you can't...or rather shouldn't...limit people to mag fed only. Get them playing limited capacity and. if they like it, they'll get magfed markers eventaully and grow the segment.

People forget this is about having fun and everything possible should be done to espose as many people to this aspect of the game as possible. Eliteist attitudes only will make the segment shrink, not grow.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:43 AM #18
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Nahib stilgar, I would totally consider you and your set up mil sim. Definitely mil sim enough to participate in an event
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:44 AM #19
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One way to get the best of both worlds is to play limited paint scenarios where anyone can come along with any marker (including speedball gats) but they are limited to 50 round hoppers or tac caps - or magfed.

Basically the idea would be to get a whole bunch of these and hand them out at the start to those that needed them:


At $5 they're so cheap you might as well buy a large number and hand them out for free included in the entry fee. Maybe buy a bunch of these in bulk too and sell them at the event:



- that's a 30 round tac pod. Failing that just get a bunch of 50 round mini pods you could sell cheapo.

That way you get all the benefits of a limited paint game that anyone including magfed and speedball players can show up to, without having to worry about players making things horribly unfun for the magfeeders with their LV1s and Spires. The 50rnd grav hoppers will limit even the highest ROF markers to something reasonable.

To do it right you'd want to make sure there were even numbers of FS shooting sniper players on each team, and maybe allow a set number of full size hopper users to play as heavy gunners - again evenly spread between teams. Example one in ten players could be a heavy, and one in ten a sniper. This creates natural tactical roles in the game without needing to artificially force them.

To keep it milsim I probably wouldn't allow dual feed/splitfire setups. Either go sniper, normal magfed/50rnd or heavy. Not two or three of the above at once. Allow sidearms, but no FS rounds in sidearms.

******

Nahib you could totally play as a heavy gunner at a magfed event if you were designated as such. Of course you could always put a tac cap on if needed.

Last edited by vijil : 07-15-2013 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:50 AM #20
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Originally Posted by Hoov661 View Post
Nahib stilgar, I would totally consider you and your set up mil sim. Definitely mil sim enough to participate in an event
Thanks very much.

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One way to get the best of both worlds is to play limited paint scenarios where anyone can come along with any marker (including speedball gats) but they are limited to 50 round hoppers or tac caps.

Basically the idea would be to get a whole bunch of these and hand them out at the start to those that needed them:


At $5 they're so cheap you might as well buy a large number and hand them out for free included in the entry fee. Maybe buy a bunch of these in bulk too and sell them at the event:



- that's a 30 round tac pod. Failing that just get a bunch of 50 round mini pods you could sell cheapo.

That way, you get all the benefits of a limited paint game that anyone including magfed players can show up to, without having to worry about players making things horribly unfun for the magfeeders with their LV1s and Spires - the 50rnd grav hoppers will limit even the highest ROF markers to something reasonable.
Totally agree with you. I played a 'tactical' tourney last year where this is what was done. you could use any gun you wanted, but could hold no more than 50rnds in a hopper. It worked well and was fun.

What was really suprising what I was able to OUTSHOOT the electros with a 50rnd hopper using my pump and stick feed! I had 12 shots ready to go where as the electos would have to stop and shake before shooting after 3-4 rounds! LOL.

Unfortunately for this current game, no hoppers are alowed, not even 50rnd ones.


As a side note, 3 10rnd tubes taped together with a beer bottle cap and an elastic in the middle make an awesome "tac" pod for about a $1.50 a pop...plus you get to drink beer!
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:19 AM #21
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Hmm 'tactical'. I have this hankering to call it 'funsim' hehe
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