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Old 06-06-2013, 03:28 PM #22
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I disbelieve in the existance of god because disbelieving is the default position to take until a claim is proven.
And that would be a logical fallacy. Default would be agnosticism, to simply say "I don't know." If someone chooses to believe or disbelieve, the burden of evidence is theirs.
No number of unexplained mysteries or miracles can justify crediting a superhuman, omniscient, creator of all, who must be worshiped and obeyed. But it also seems that even an atheist must make a judgement call, based on what they see/ don't see, that goes beyond what can be proven.

I am a Christian, in particular, I'm LDS/Mormon (whatever u like haha). The way i see it, the only way you can know is to ask for a revelation, and to receive it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:52 PM #23
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It has become fashionable, and it is nothing more than a fashion, to believe that the universe is dumb, stupid. That intelligence, values, love and fine feelings reside only within the bag of the human epidermis, and that outside that, the thing is simply a kind of a chaotic, stupid interaction of blind forces, and our intelligence is an unfortunate accident. By some weird freak of evolution we came to be these feeling and rational beings, more or less rational, and this is a ghastly mistake because here we are in a universe that has nothing in common with us, that doesn't share our feelings, has no real interest in us: we're just a sort of cosmic fluke. And therefore, the only hope for mankind is to beat this irrational universe into submission, and conquer it and master it.

Now all this is perfectly idiotic. If you would think that the idea of the universe as being the creation of a benevolent old gentleman, although he's not so benevolent - he takes a sort of "this hurts me more than it's going to hurt you" sort of attitude to things, you can have that on one hand, and if that becomes uncomfortable you can exchange it for its opposite: the idea that the ultimate reality doesn't have any intelligence at all. At least that gets rid of the old bogey in the sky - in exchange for a picture of the world that is completely stupid.

Now these ideas don't make any sense, because you cannot get an intelligent organism such as a human being out of an unintelligent universe. The saying in the New Testament that figs do not grow on thistles nor grapes on thorns applies equally to the world. You do not find an intelligent organism living in an unintelligent environment.

-Alan Watts (kind of a wacko, but I like some of his ideas)
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:12 PM #24
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And that would be a logical fallacy. Default would be agnosticism, to simply say "I don't know." If someone chooses to believe or disbelieve, the burden of evidence is theirs.
OK, then I don't know if there's a god. But no one, and I mean no one, has ever presented any evidence that there is a god.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:14 PM #25
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OK, then I don't know if there's a god. But no one, and I mean no one, has ever presented any evidence that there is a god.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:28 PM #26
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It has become fashionable, and it is nothing more than a fashion, to believe that the universe is dumb, stupid. That intelligence, values, love and fine feelings reside only within the bag of the human epidermis, and that outside that, the thing is simply a kind of a chaotic, stupid interaction of blind forces, and our intelligence is an unfortunate accident. By some weird freak of evolution we came to be these feeling and rational beings, more or less rational, and this is a ghastly mistake because here we are in a universe that has nothing in common with us, that doesn't share our feelings, has no real interest in us: we're just a sort of cosmic fluke. And therefore, the only hope for mankind is to beat this irrational universe into submission, and conquer it and master it.

Now all this is perfectly idiotic. If you would think that the idea of the universe as being the creation of a benevolent old gentleman, although he's not so benevolent - he takes a sort of "this hurts me more than it's going to hurt you" sort of attitude to things, you can have that on one hand, and if that becomes uncomfortable you can exchange it for its opposite: the idea that the ultimate reality doesn't have any intelligence at all. At least that gets rid of the old bogey in the sky - in exchange for a picture of the world that is completely stupid.

Now these ideas don't make any sense, because you cannot get an intelligent organism such as a human being out of an unintelligent universe. The saying in the New Testament that figs do not grow on thistles nor grapes on thorns applies equally to the world. You do not find an intelligent organism living in an unintelligent environment.

-Alan Watts (kind of a wacko, but I like some of his ideas)


Am I correct in assuming he author of this is English?
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:47 PM #27
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Yup.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:04 PM #28
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Great question. Personally i would not say that I outright believe in the ritual practices of my faith, but for sure I believe and try to abide by it's core moral rhetoric as that of most religions and ideologies does have some quality as principle. At the end of the day I feel that it has to be realized that religion and all things that try to encourage specific behaviors are all rhetorical tools that attempt to present values in a way that everyone can have a chance to implement them.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:55 AM #29
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OK, then I don't know if there's a god. But no one, and I mean no one, has ever presented any evidence that there is a god.
and they never could sufficiently do so, for similar reasons that no one could ever present evidence that there is no god. The only evidence that could possibly work, is if you found it yourself.
The burden is on each individual to find truth for themselves. You can't just live your live passing that responsibility to scientists, or pastors, or whomever to decide truth for you.
That includes finding out if there is actually some one or something who governs things we can't see or understand.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:36 PM #30
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and they never could sufficiently do so...
Not true. The almighty himself could come on down and prove himself to exist. Maybe perform a few miracles, raise some dead...

I find it ironic that god is supposed to love us, but doesn't even care enough about us to simply show us that he exists. I don't think that's asking much. Just an occassional visit to say hi. Ya know... sort of like a cousin that you only see on holidays.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:41 PM #31
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Not true. The almighty himself could come on down and prove himself to exist. Maybe perform a few miracles, raise some dead...

I find it ironic that god is supposed to love us, but doesn't even care enough about us to simply show us that he exists. I don't think that's asking much. Just an occassional visit to say hi. Ya know... sort of like a cousin that you only see on holidays.
Word on the street is, He has. but that didn't change many opinions.
If i saw a guy going around doing fantastical things I'd sooner think he was an improved Chris Angel before I called him god.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:38 PM #32
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Not true. The almighty himself could come on down and prove himself to exist. Maybe perform a few miracles, raise some dead...

I find it ironic that god is supposed to love us, but doesn't even care enough about us to simply show us that he exists. I don't think that's asking much. Just an occassional visit to say hi. Ya know... sort of like a cousin that you only see on holidays.
The entire Christian religion is predicated on free consent. If the Almighty sent an emissary down to do miraculous things, it would completely eliminate that freedom of choice.

And then there's Umami's point which is entirely valid as well.

At the end of the day, it's up to you to do the leg work. Go sit under a tree for a few days. Try your luck in desert for a week. See what comes out the other end of that one.

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Old 06-07-2013, 05:47 PM #33
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Word on the street is, He has. but that didn't change many opinions.
2000 years ago! You'll forgive me if I dont trust the scribblings of a bunch of anceint farts who could barely understand gravity.

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The entire Christian religion is predicated on free consent. If the Almighty sent an emissary down to do miraculous things, it would completely eliminate that freedom of choice.
Personally I think free will in Chrisitianity is a farce. But that's been debated to death. But I don't see how god coming down here himself would violate free will. I'm just loooking for proof of existance. My parents tried to give me that sort of proof when they took me to see Santa. Why can't god just show himself... show us that he is indeed supernatural. Turn my car into an elephant and have it poop house-sized diamonds with the wave of his almighty hand. If someone can do that in front of me, I'll get on my knee and yell "praise be!" Hell, I'll even give the diamonds back, I just want to see it done.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:03 PM #34
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2000 years ago! You'll forgive me if I dont trust the scribblings of a bunch of anceint farts who could barely understand gravity.



Personally I think free will in Chrisitianity is a farce. But that's been debated to death. But I don't see how god coming down here himself would violate free will. I'm just loooking for proof of existance. My parents tried to give me that sort of proof when they took me to see Santa. Why can't god just show himself... show us that he is indeed supernatural. Turn my car into an elephant and have it poop house-sized diamonds with the wave of his almighty hand. If someone can do that in front of me, I'll get on my knee and yell "praise be!" Hell, I'll even give the diamonds back, I just want to see it done.
If God were to do any of those things, you would not have a choice whether or not to believe. That negates free will entirely.

Back to the horse: you can vehemently deny a horse exists. You can choose to believe a horse exists and seek it out. If someone places a horse in front of you, you, by no choice of your own, are forced to accept that horses are real.

Look at it this way. It's like the Indian traditions. They tell you what the end goal is, but you actually have to do the leg work yourself in order to actually "get it." Knowledge is not enough, not even in the most mundane activity imaginable.

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:13 PM #35
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Hey now, don't make me out to be a theist.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:17 PM #36
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Hey now, don't make me out to be a theist.
If this was to me, don't worry, I know better. The point you made is valid. People don't accept things that are clear as day, right in front of their eyes, all the time.
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:07 PM #37
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:16 PM #38
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Quantum Physics , according to some scientists, says there is a type of god. Just not your human bearded male entity somewhere up there. Check the link. Interesting read. http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j11/goswami.asp
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:38 PM #39
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2000 years ago! You'll forgive me if I dont trust the scribblings of a bunch of anceint farts who could barely understand gravity.
What do u understand of dimensions? Sequence of events and time? Why would you trust your own eyes? I wouldn't worship someone just because they did something I couldn't explain.

Also, let's say you were weak minded enough that you would worship someone just because they showed you some cool tricks. This is where its important that a person actually understands the purpose of existence.
I don't blame for not understanding, as most Christians don't get it.

God doesn't set up this life as game board where we kill each other and have power struggles, and see who comes out of on their knees begging for mercy. It's not about being gullible, or just believing in Jesus. It's about becoming something more. About becoming as free as possible from barriers, and mastering our spirit, body, and mind.

Lets say Jesus turns your water to champagne, raises your dog from the dead, and gives you PhD. Lets say you kiss his feet and believe anything else he says. You are not more of a person. You didn't learn how to learn, you did not learn about spirituality.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:29 PM #40
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Also, let's say you were weak minded enough that you would worship someone just because they showed you some cool tricks. This is where its important that a person actually understands the purpose of existence.
I don't blame for not understanding, as most Christians don't get it.
Turning my car into an elephant and have it poop house-sized diamonds... you have to admit that's more than just a trick, even for David Blaine!

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God doesn't set up this life as game board where we kill each other and have power struggles, and see who comes out of on their knees begging for mercy. It's not about being gullible, or just believing in Jesus. It's about becoming something more. About becoming as free as possible from barriers, and mastering our spirit, body, and mind.
So let me ask this: Is it possible to become something more without believeing in Jesus, god, or allah, etc.?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:21 PM #41
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Turning my car into an elephant and have it poop house-sized diamonds... you have to admit that's more than just a trick, even for David Blaine!
haha this is true. but i wouldn't say that just because an all powerful fellow visits you and tells you he made the world, doesn't mean you should worship him. Maybe he's just a freakin alien.

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So let me ask this: Is it possible to become something more without believeing in Jesus, god, or allah, etc.?
This is where the beliefs of almost every religion in and out of Christianity falls apart. And this is largely why I became a Mormon. Here's what I believe. It may leave more questions than answers, but don't hesitate to ask them:
Short answer, Yes. Anyone seeking truth, greater understanding, and self-mastery will reach their greatest potential, and acceptance with God.

Long answer, No. We each do things that are "wrong," even by our own standards. We give in to natural impulses or emotional actions, when we know that by doing so we are limiting our freedom.

When we die we stand before God, and we will have a perfect recollection of our actions. If we feel guilty, we will be ashamed of our actions and won't be comfortable in his presence, and we will leave. That's not to say you walk into a lava pit called Hell, but you will leave the presence of God.
Since we all have our imperfections, there's a way around that. If you believe that Christ's atonement was legit, you will ask forgiveness. If you actually believe that Christ understands where you are coming from, and his forgiveness means something to you, you won't feel guilty when he forgives you.

There is period between death and the judgement, where we are just spirits here on Earth. In that time is a grace period, kind of a last chance to accept Christ and accept his forgiveness. It's not a heck of a lot different than life on earth tho, and you will still have your same attitudes. But every person will have a fair and legit chance to hear the actual truth and accept it. but just like in mortality, even then, many won't care to recognize as such. The grace, however, is that many will.
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Old 06-10-2013, 05:14 PM #42
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This is where the beliefs of almost every religion in and out of Christianity falls apart. And this is largely why I became a Mormon. Here's what I believe. It may leave more questions than answers, but don't hesitate to ask them:
Short answer, Yes. Anyone seeking truth, greater understanding, and self-mastery will reach their greatest potential, and acceptance with God.
I agreed with everything you were saying right up until "and acceptance with god."
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