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Old 06-01-2013, 06:18 PM #1
snowbandit16
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Why do you believe? (concisely)

I don't want this to be a debate among religions. I do want to hear what drives you to faith or lack of it. Whether you are Atheist, Jewish, Christian, whatever- What makes you so sure?
Doesn't need to be your conversion story, just WHY?
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:04 PM #2
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I disbelieve in the existance of god because disbelieving is the default position to take until a claim is proven. Thesists make a calim that god is real, therefore the burdon of proof of that claim falls to them. Until that burdon is met, I'll continue to disbelieve.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:55 PM #3
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People who believe that everything which is true must be able to be proven true by x or y system are insane. Mysticism adds color to life, I'm a human being goddamn it, not a calculator. There is certainly some wry amusement in watching others pretend they are calculators.
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:27 PM #4
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
People who believe that everything which is true must be able to be proven true by x or y system are insane. Mysticism adds color to life, I'm a human being goddamn it, not a calculator. There is certainly some wry amusement in watching others pretend they are calculators.
Then according to your logic, I'll make a calim that the tooth fairy is real. I know it to be true, I have no evidence, but I don't need to provide any. Anyone who disagrees with me is doomed to suffer eternal toothaches. And what's more, I'm going to lobby Congress to institute a series of dental laws, which in the end, will force you to comply with my belief system.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:03 PM #5
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Was that red herring intentional or did you not understand the content of the first sentence of my post?
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:22 PM #6
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I disagree with the content of the first sentence of your post. People who believe that anything that is true must be proven to be true are generally called scientists.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:49 PM #7
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Yes I understand that you disagree but you still don't appear to be grasping what I said. Would you like an example?
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:15 PM #8
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Sure... lay it on me.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:41 PM #9
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OK, but first let me clarify my statement. The message was never about not needing to prove something to people, it was about requesting a certain type of proof(x or y) as if it were applicable across the board.

For example, requesting empirical evidence of something which is outside the scope of empiricism. Most often people get a hard on for one method of investigation and in turn giving themselves tunnel vision.

There is a reason people ask for more than just a logical argument to prove things these days.

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Old 06-05-2013, 12:44 AM #10
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The problem with the burden of proof is that every negative statement can be rephrased into a positive one. Really the burden of proof is on everyone, all the time. The "default" position should always be "I don't know", ie. pure agnosticism. As soon as you say "There is no God" you acquire as much of a burden of proof as anyone else.

I'm a Christian for both negative and positive reasons - negative because I've read Dawkins, Krauss, Russell, Harris etc. and find their arguments unconvincing or fallacious, which is compounded by the fact that most of them haven't enough respect for theists to actually bother trying to understand the counters to their positions. Arrogance, rhetoric and wilful ignorance don't make you any more likely to be correct.

Besides all that I consider the humanist position to be ultimately incoherent and self defeating logically.

Positively, I believe there is in fact evidence for God, despite shrill claims to the contrary.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:17 AM #11
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As soon as you say "There is no God" you acquire as much of a burden of proof as anyone else.
I'd argue otherwise. Nobody could say "There is no God" without someone saying "There is a God" first. The entire term and concept of God itself would not exist for someone to deny unless someone created it first.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:33 AM #12
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Except for the fact that nobody is born into a vacuum. There is no such thing as a default blank slate.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:04 PM #13
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Except for the fact that nobody is born into a vacuum. There is no such thing as a default blank slate.
There is no such thing as a filled bucket of knowledge upon birth. Everything is learned/theorized through experience and experiment. It would be naive to believe that our ancient ancestors and/or common cousins have always believed in such a thing. At some point, the idea was theorized in an attempt to explain an unknown. Sure, we're born in to a world of colors, sounds, and feelings of touch. This takes away the vacuum, but how would one be born with innate knowledge of the metaphysical? And what cases to we have to use as evidence?

Your post still doesn't refute my claim; something must first have been claimed to be before it can be denied. How could one deny the existence of unicorns if nobody ever thought up first unicorns?
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:22 PM #14
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Studies done on infants and children seem to indicate that the search for metaphysical is innate. Which makes some sense considering the mind itself is one such example. There is certainly more to the equation than knowledge. Experience and intuition are just we much a part of it.

Your claim is based on assumptions of human thought before recorded history first off. Second, it's based on the assumption that someone, somewhere thought up the idea of God (as per your unicorn/first cause example). History more accurately represents a sin wave than a line going in any particular direction anyway, considering that similar conclusions seem to pop up at different points of the globe throughout recorded history.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:04 PM #15
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Studies done on infants and children seem to indicate that the search for metaphysical is innate. Which makes some sense considering the mind itself is one such example. There is certainly more to the equation than knowledge. Experience and intuition are just we much a part of it.

Your claim is based on assumptions of human thought before recorded history first off. Second, it's based on the assumption that someone, somewhere thought up the idea of God (as per your unicorn/first cause example). History more accurately represents a sin wave than a line going in any particular direction anyway, considering that similar conclusions seem to pop up at different points of the globe throughout recorded history.
But the search for the metaphysical does not directly correlate to a concept of 'God.' Again, this does nothing to refute my claim that for one to deny something, it first has to exist. Otherwise, denying something that hasn't been invented yet is like trying to visualize a color you've never seen before.

My claim is based on perceived experimentation and connections with evolutionary patterns of all species. If evolution is true (and it certainly seems so, as every shred of evidence supports it and not a single piece of evidence denies it), then we had to come up with the concept at some point in our lineage. Single-cell organisms don't have brains. How would one come to think of the metaphysical when thought isn't present?

I follow and agree with the notion that attempts of metaphysical understanding have popped up all around the globe from all races of mankind. This says nothing other than your predisposition to attempt to understand the world around us; it's this very level of thinking that holds us as the highest creatures on the food chain.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:40 PM #16
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But the search for the metaphysical does not directly correlate to a concept of 'God.' Again, this does nothing to refute my claim that for one to deny something, it first has to exist. Otherwise, denying something that hasn't been invented yet is like trying to visualize a color you've never seen before.
OK. The way you've had it worded is screwy. Real or imaged a thing has to exist before it can be denied. We are clear now.

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My claim is based on perceived experimentation and connections with evolutionary patterns of all species. If evolution is true (and it certainly seems so, as every shred of evidence supports it and not a single piece of evidence denies it), then we had to come up with the concept at some point in our lineage. Single-cell organisms don't have brains. How would one come to think of the metaphysical when thought isn't present?
In keeping with the path you've sketched out here, I'd say one alternative explanation would be that we reached a level of sophistication where direct experience/contact/knowledge/whatever it is was possible. Surely it is possible that the hardware advanced to a point where it was able to better process its software?

Quote:
I follow and agree with the notion that attempts of metaphysical understanding have popped up all around the globe from all races of mankind. This says nothing other than your predisposition to attempt to understand the world around us; it's this very level of thinking that holds us as the highest creatures on the food chain.
If that is the way you interpret it, and you think it sounds good, then I guess it should.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:41 PM #17
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OK. The way you've had it worded is screwy. Real or imaged a thing has to exist before it can be denied. We are clear now.
I'm not the most eloquent with words. Apologies, good sir.

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In keeping with the path you've sketched out here, I'd say one alternative explanation would be that we reached a level of sophistication where direct experience/contact/knowledge/whatever it is was possible. Surely it is possible that the hardware advanced to a point where it was able to better process its software?
That is possible, sure. I believe my statement still stands though; we had to progress to that thought.

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If that is the way you interpret it, and you think it sounds good, then I guess it should.
Rereading that part of my post, I hope you knew I was speaking of "your" as you directly. "Our" would have worked much better. Typing at work with a half-shutoff brain doesn't produce the best results.

Our brain is what makes us the superior species on this planet. Apart from that, we're rather poorly designed, save for being bipedal and having opposable thumbs. Curiosity is the driving force for knowledge and it hardwired in ourselves to try to explain things, for without this curiosity, our brains would be rather worthless. Heaping piles of untapped, fleshy potential they would be. We this curiosity in infantile stages, starting with basic touching, tasting, and smelling methods of discovery. As we grow, our curiosity drives us (well, those of us who are deemed successful) to understand the way things work. I don't see any reason to see the realm of metaphysical understanding to be any part separate from this. It all boils down to mankind's curiosity and desire to understand.
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:17 PM #18
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I'm not the most eloquent with words. Apologies, good sir.
Its all good baby.

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That is possible, sure. I believe my statement still stands though; we had to progress to that thought.
Your statement sounds as good an explanation as any.

Quote:
Rereading that part of my post, I hope you knew I was speaking of "your" as you directly. "Our" would have worked much better. Typing at work with a half-shutoff brain doesn't produce the best results.

Our brain is what makes us the superior species on this planet. Apart from that, we're rather poorly designed, save for being bipedal and having opposable thumbs. Curiosity is the driving force for knowledge and it hardwired in ourselves to try to explain things, for without this curiosity, our brains would be rather worthless. Heaping piles of untapped, fleshy potential they would be. We this curiosity in infantile stages, starting with basic touching, tasting, and smelling methods of discovery. As we grow, our curiosity drives us (well, those of us who are deemed successful) to understand the way things work. I don't see any reason to see the realm of metaphysical understanding to be any part separate from this. It all boils down to mankind's curiosity and desire to understand.
I got the meaning. My response was a less wordy way of saying: the only thing we have control over in life besides our actions is the way in which we choose to explain and interpret events. What you take from the same data differs from what I take, and that is that.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:12 PM #19
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Its all good baby.

Your statement sounds as good an explanation as any.

I got the meaning. My response was a less wordy way of saying: the only thing we have control over in life besides our actions is the way in which we choose to explain and interpret events. What you take from the same data differs from what I take, and that is that.
NO!

SCIENCE! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! EMPIRICISM!

Also, dickbutts.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:33 PM #20
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Well you know, when you try to become one thing in spite of another thing, you usually end up just like the thing you tried not to be.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:45 PM #21
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Is that why I'm a banana?
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